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Thread: The GOD Thread~

  1. #641
    Senior Member Nicodemus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GarrotTheThief View Post
    Carl Jung said if we stare into the abyss for too long the abyss will stare back and then other people will see its reflection upon our visage.
    Then Jung quoted Nietzsche.
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  2. #642
    Senior Member iNtrovert's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nicodemus View Post
    If you are right for the wrong reasons, you usually think you are right for the right reasons and so not guessing. I think one's 'real right to question what other people believe in', if existent at all, is irrevocable.


    That a person named Jesus may have lived is generally considered likely, yes. But his miracles and resurrection are neither 'historically verifiable' nor 'widely accepted by historians', and, of course, there are no extrabiblical sources for their occurrence. Naturally, the gospels are worthless as historical sources, even if they were written by eye-witnesses.


    Have you heard of the Yeti or seen a UFO? People lie, people imagine, people misremember, people tell stories.


    Troy has been found, you know. Its existence is a lot less shaky than Christ's. Now, do you believe all the things claimed in the Iliad? I wonder how Zeus feels about Yahweh.


    Pretensions to a superior moral code are not a necessary element of atheism.


    What I said is that displaying hypocritical intolerance and hate make one look more wrongheaded than intolerance and hate untainted by hypocrisy.
    Ok I tried to address everything lol This was a long discussion so I’m rying to keep track of the original questions and responses

    Quote Originally Posted by Nicodemus View Post
    If you are right for the wrong reasons, you usually think you are right for the right reasons and so not guessing. I think one's 'real right to question what other people believe in', if existent at all, is irrevocable.
    I would actually have to agree with this. I was talking about making found less claims not simply being incorrect but that’s true

    Quote Originally Posted by Nicodemus View Post
    That a person named Jesus may have lived is generally considered likely, yes. But his miracles and resurrection are neither 'historically verifiable' nor 'widely accepted by historians', and, of course, there are no extra biblical sources for their occurrence. Naturally, the gospels are worthless as historical sources, even if theywere written by eye-witnesses.
    In my haste I misspoke and you were right to point it out. What I meant to illustrate was that the Gospels are historically proven eye-witness accounts and that it is accepted by scholars. Given that they were accepted as eye-witness accounts the Gospels give details of the life of Jesus, his teachings death burial and resurrection.

    So with this I was answering your question about why we as Christians still claim divine authority of the text when it needs to be viewed in context. There are extra biblical accounts that recognize Jesus in light of the Christian faith and I have given you a few in my other response but you are right in saying that the actual occurrence meaning “matter of fact statements” are not extra biblical. That however is not surprising as the momentum for the adoption of Christianity only occurs after the claims of the resurrection were made.

    This is exactly what we would expect as there was still a lot of dispute and dissention before the resurrection as to whether or not Jesus was the messiah even among his followers. People wanted proof and the gospels cite the event of the resurrection as being that proof. The extra biblical sources speak to the rapid spread of the faith and the acceptance of the message of the messiah after the masses received substantial proof to spur that change. The best explanation for this is that at the very least believed beyond a reasonable doupt that the resurrection did occur.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nicodemus View Post
    ave you heard of the Yeti or seen a UFO? People lie, people imagine, people misremember, people tell stories.

    Is probably one of the weakest arguments skeptics have and most don’t use against the accounts of those who say they seen Jesus. The eyewitness accounts that were recorded in the bible include to many people for this to make sense. These people had no prior disposition to hallucinate it and nothing to gain. The Christians ended up being excommunicated and murdered for their profession of faith. They didn’t gain anything monetarily. Also the fact that the “heroes” of the bible possesses so many charter flaws further supports that they weren’t just making it up for their own benefit. Peter denied Jesus all the Apostles ran away when Jesus was killed. Paul mercilessly persecuted believers and the women were the only ones who stayed by his side. The sub class of women such that no Man would willingly admit that in this
    time period. None of the early teachers of Christianity used the claim to exalt themselves or gain power. This is why most skeptics assert that people at the very least truly thought these events had taken place even if the skeptic his/herself does not feel moved to accept it which is an honorable stance to have and one I do respect.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nicodemus View Post
    Troy has been found, you know. Its existence is a lot less shaky than Christ's. Now, do you believe all the things claimed in the Iliad? I wonder how Zeus feels about Yahweh.
    Through the study of ancient literature scholar’s find the gospels best adhere to the formula of ancient biographies which is why they are considered to be written with the purpose to portray actual historical events opposed to mythologies poems or epics. However, in the bible there are poems and parables that were meant to teach lessons and not to be taken literally such as that is the context in which they were written. Much of the Old Testament has a strong historical framework as well with extra biblical references. A few examples
    Ahab, king of Israel: Mentioned extensively in Kings and Chronicles. Identified in the contemporary Kurkh Monolith inscription of Shalmaneser III[1] which describes the Battle of Qarqar and mentions 2,000 chariots, 10,000 soldiers of Ahab the Israelite defeated by Shalmaneser.[2]
    in Ezra 4:10.[11][12] He is named in numerous contemporary inscriptions,[13] including those that tell of his conquest of Elam and Babylon which accords with Ezra 4:9-10 where people that he exiled from these regions are mentioned.[14] Diodorus Siculus (book II, 21) preserved a fanciful account of him by Ctesias. (SeeSardanapalus in.[15])
    Baruch ben Neriah, a scribe in the time of Jeremiah. Two identical imprints of his seal were discovered in 1975 and 1996. They read 'to Berachyahu son of Neriyahu the scribe'.[16][17]
    Belshazzar, coregent of Babylon, son of king Nabonidus,[18] see Nabonidus Cylinder.
    Ben-hadad son of Hazael, king of Aram Damascus. He is mentioned in the Zakkur Stele.[19]
    "Re-examine all that you have been told... dismiss that which insults your soul."_Walt Whitman
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  3. #643
    Senior Member iNtrovert's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Can you explain a little better about what you mean when you say, "it also never happened?" since you also admit you are sure this did happen? (I think it was pretty common practice to kill the males and perhaps the children, while taking the women as your own to produce indigenous women, etc.) It was a pretty violent, stark world in that sense. I'm having trouble understanding your meaning.

    As a prime example of violence, David said many wonderful things about his enemies and actually carried them out; he was an interesting figure, pretty ruthless in battle and fighting enemies but unable to appropriate father his own family. He was also referred to as a "man after God's own heart" (which is repeated endlessly in church sermons today), so understandably people tend to view his words and behavior as having God's approval aside from his obvious blunders like his affair with Bathsheba and accompanying murder of her husband. Violence seems inherent to the accounts in the Old Testament, and some of that violence was supposedly ordered by God.
    Sure when I say it never happened I mean the verse that was quoted is not documentation or approval for the killing of babies but a Psalm


    Regarding David you are right he shed a lot of blood for God. It was necessary at the time to establish the nation, but as a consequence there are things David is not allowed to do for God because he was a man of war.

    1 Chronicles 28:2-3 2Then King David rose to his feet and said, "Listen to me, my brethren and my people; I had intended to build a permanent home for the ark of the covenant of the LORD and for the footstool of our God. So I had made preparations to build it. 3"But God said to me, 'You shall not build a house for My name because you are a man of war and have shed blood.'

    Heres a little information about just how scarade the Ark of the Covenant was.

    The real significance of the Ark of the Covenant was what took place involving the lid of the box, known as the "Mercy Seat." The term ‘mercy seat’ comes from a Hebrew word meaning “to cover, placate, appease, cleanse, cancel or make atonement for.” It was here that the high priest, only once a year (Leviticus 16), entered the Holy of Holies where the Ark was kept and atoned for his sins and the sins of the Israelites. The priest sprinkled blood of a sacrificed animal onto the Mercy Seat to appease the wrath and anger of God for past sins committed. This was the only place in the world where this atonement could take place.

    Read more: What is the Ark of the Covenant?

    In the passage I quoted we see God telling David because of the blood shed he's not even fit to build a room for the Ark on his behalf.
    "Re-examine all that you have been told... dismiss that which insults your soul."_Walt Whitman
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  4. #644
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    Quote Originally Posted by iNtrovert View Post
    there was still a lot of dispute and dissention before the resurrection as to whether or not Jesus was the messiah even among his followers.
    Jesus was a member of the Judaic religion, and the Judaic religion rejected Jesus as the Jewish Messiah because he failed to drive out the Romans.

    The Christians, in order to curry favour with the Romans, blamed the Jews for the death of Jesus and cursed the Jews in the New Testament, saying, Let his (Jesus') blood be upon us (the Jews) and upon our children, leading to 2,000 years of pogroms against the Jews, culminating in the holocaust.

  5. #645
    The Dark Lord The Wailing Specter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by iNtrovert View Post
    Sure when I say it never happened I mean the verse that was quoted is not documentation or approval for the killing of babies but a Psalm


    Regarding David you are right he shed a lot of blood for God. It was necessary at the time to establish the nation, but as a consequence there are things David is not allowed to do for God because he was a man of war.

    1 Chronicles 28:2-3 2Then King David rose to his feet and said, "Listen to me, my brethren and my people; I had intended to build a permanent home for the ark of the covenant of the LORD and for the footstool of our God. So I had made preparations to build it. 3"But God said to me, 'You shall not build a house for My name because you are a man of war and have shed blood.'

    Heres a little information about just how scarade the Ark of the Covenant was.

    The real significance of the Ark of the Covenant was what took place involving the lid of the box, known as the "Mercy Seat." The term ‘mercy seat’ comes from a Hebrew word meaning “to cover, placate, appease, cleanse, cancel or make atonement for.” It was here that the high priest, only once a year (Leviticus 16), entered the Holy of Holies where the Ark was kept and atoned for his sins and the sins of the Israelites. The priest sprinkled blood of a sacrificed animal onto the Mercy Seat to appease the wrath and anger of God for past sins committed. This was the only place in the world where this atonement could take place.

    Read more: What is the Ark of the Covenant?

    In the passage I quoted we see God telling David because of the blood shed he's not even fit to build a room for the Ark on his behalf.
    What of my numbers 31 quote?
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  6. #646
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by iNtrovert View Post
    Sure when I say it never happened I mean the verse that was quoted is not documentation or approval for the killing of babies but a Psalm
    Thanks, I understand your point better there. (Although Psalms are really worship / songs to God, and they're treated as infallible scripture and models for behavior in every church I've gone to, so... still kind of unsettling. Churches do not make a distinction. I mean, look at the abortion issue and how consistently the church pulls stuff from Psalms -- "I am wonderfully and fearfully made, you knew me in my mother's womb," etc. -- to validate it's anti-abortion stance.)

    Regarding David you are right he shed a lot of blood for God. It was necessary at the time to establish the nation, but as a consequence there are things David is not allowed to do for God because he was a man of war.

    1 Chronicles 28:2-3 2Then King David rose to his feet and said, "Listen to me, my brethren and my people; I had intended to build a permanent home for the ark of the covenant of the LORD and for the footstool of our God. So I had made preparations to build it. 3"But God said to me, 'You shall not build a house for My name because you are a man of war and have shed blood.'

    Heres a little information about just how scarade the Ark of the Covenant was.

    The real significance of the Ark of the Covenant was what took place involving the lid of the box, known as the "Mercy Seat." The term ‘mercy seat’ comes from a Hebrew word meaning “to cover, placate, appease, cleanse, cancel or make atonement for.” It was here that the high priest, only once a year (Leviticus 16), entered the Holy of Holies where the Ark was kept and atoned for his sins and the sins of the Israelites. The priest sprinkled blood of a sacrificed animal onto the Mercy Seat to appease the wrath and anger of God for past sins committed. This was the only place in the world where this atonement could take place.

    Read more: What is the Ark of the Covenant?

    In the passage I quoted we see God telling David because of the blood shed he's not even fit to build a room for the Ark on his behalf.

    Yeah, I'm aware of all that.

    Still, David killed all those people because they were enemies of God, and he is called a man after God's own heart, and God seemed to endorse his victories and in fact the church routinely preaches such. I've done more than enough Bible studies and attended various denominations, and it's all taken as tacitly approved and even beloved by God.

    So David wasn't allowed to build the temple because of the blood he shed. It doesn't mean his behavior in those wars shouldn't be held as approved of and reflective of God, he was just a sword to shed blood, whereas Solomon was a hammer or saw (to build the temple). Both were still designated by God for certain tasks and were considered walking in his will. So we're back to the original problem with David and the things he did under God's leading that people now see as at best understandable in a time of war but not really anything especially moral... unless of course you are saying that none of the killing David did on God's behalf was approved by God and left him unworthy, yet he was still labeled as the "man after God's own heart." Big conundrum here, and I don't think this bullet can be dodged.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

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  7. #647
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beorn View Post
    Sadly, it's not enough to just be real anymore.

    Can't you see that there's going to be a difference in the approach to reality between a society that believes significance is inherent in reality and a society that shifts significance to a matter of perception?
    Sadly, things are becoming more and more that way: the reality is that perception is being overvalued.

    Quote Originally Posted by iNtrovert View Post
    Nope, It's all perspective. I could say non-believers look worse because they profess to have a moral code superior to that or the religious derived from their own sense of right and wrong. Yet, when they wish death on people in public forums its proof that their moral compass is corrupt which is a tenant of the Christn religion and they look quite foolish.
    You could say that, but not all non-believers (or otherwise-believers) claim their moral code is superior to that of others. If anything, Christianity is the belief system whose followers most often seem to assert the superiority of their own moral code, and indeed their whole faith; though certain Muslim groups are giving them a run for their money. When someone makes death wishes on a public forum, it says more about their individual state of mind than anything else. Any faith can be used to jusify this, and to decry it.

    Quote Originally Posted by iNtrovert View Post
    I wasn't taking about all religions just the one we were discussing. For there to be a false dichotomy there needs to be a third option related to the acceptance or denile of the Bible since that is what I was dealing with specifically. The Quran doesn't apply to a discussion about the Christian Bible nor does the punishment related to other religions.
    Any discussion that claims the superiority or uniqueness of Christianity or the Bible invites counterexamples. But then perhaps you are claiming neither here.

    Quote Originally Posted by GarrotTheThief View Post
    The way I see it is that every religion/spirituality/creed has parts which are divinely inspired just as any work and parts which are corrupt. This to me is empirical evidence of a higher one above us or a loving creator which is really a leap of faith.

    Yet still considering the fact our ontology is contingent on spiritualism and you may see it otherwise, or not - after all if it were not for religious convictions of certain said people we would not have or be here today the way that we are - Isaac, Galileo, Einstein, Tesla, Joan of Arc, Cleopatra - all of them spiritualists at heart, as shamanistic as a bushman yet men/women of science too.

    It is as if 10,000 fingers point to a throne upon which the maker dwells, even science, and we argue about the fingers, we see the fingers for the moon, as Bruce Lee would say.

    It is as if there is a divine source which is the purest light and we see only different wavelengths as that light moves through a prism and argue about them instead of seeing it all in its glorious totality.
    It's the story of the blind men and the elephant. No one can see the totality of God. That doesn't make what we do see without value, but then the same can be said for other believers as well. The commonality of certain basic themes and archetypes across the world's religions does indeed point to something fundamental, though whether about God or about humanity cannot be determined with certainty. (Joseph Campbell wrote extensively on this topic.)

    It is interesting that you include science as one of the disciplines that points to God. When my own faith was much in doubt, it was my appreciation of the work of great scientists of old like Newton and Galileo that kept me from losing faith altogether, and eventually set me on the spiritual path I still follow today.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  8. #648
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  9. #649
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    Good Morning, Everyone~

    I wanted to share this scripture with you.

    Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you.
    For everyone who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened. ~Matthew 7:7-8
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    The more one loves God, the more it is that having nothing in the world means everything, and the less one loves God, the more it is that having everything in the world means nothing.

    Do not resist an evil person, but to him who strikes you on the one cheek, offer also the other. ~Matthew 5:39

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    Quote Originally Posted by Qre:us View Post
    Suicide killer, the OG: Samson (Judges 16:28-30)
    What a gangster. See what women drive men to? : D Damn Delilahs
    I've had this ice cream bar, since I was a child!

    Each thought's completely warped
    I'm like a walkin', talkin', ouija board.

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