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Thread: The GOD Thread~

  1. #621
    Senior Member Qre:us's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nicodemus View Post
    It is. Hence sense (and mockery).

  2. #622
    The Green Jolly Robin H.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qre:us View Post
    I'd wager my sanity that, that is the motivation for all suicide killers, feeling oppressed and scarred by the oppressors, until they decide to take matters into their own hands, and sacrifice their own life, for the life of the "enemies", because the enemies justly deserved it, for mocking them and their god/doctrine/what have you..........

    It ain't just them cray cray Jihadists. Sanctioned in the Bible.



    God likes to play hide and seek.
    the essence of all things seems to be hidden behind a blanket of form. I Would expect the maker to have the most unobservable essence and thereby the most formless form of all.
    "i shut the door and in the morning
    it was open
    -the end"




    Olemn slammed his hammer and from the sparks on the metal of his anvil came the spheres of the heavens.

    Sayrah blew life into the spheres and they moved. From her wheel she weaved the names of people in to mystery.

  3. #623
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GarrotTheThief View Post
    The way I see it is that every religion/spirituality/creed has parts which are divinely inspired just as any work and parts which are corrupt. This to me is empirical evidence of a higher one above us or a loving creator which is really a leap of faith.
    How is this empirical? Just because various types of people can exhibit what we could label as divine inspiration (which is already "begging the question")?

    I think it says something about human beings, but we have no idea what that is -- just as it seems just as viable to believe the "bright white light" after death could be anything from some kind of divine experience to some kind of final series of neural firings triggered by lack of oxygen. It's obviously SOMETHING... but we can't seem to pinpoint anything "empirically."

    Quote Originally Posted by GarrotTheThief View Post
    the essence of all things seems to be hidden behind a blanket of form. I Would expect the maker to have the most unobservable essence and thereby the most formless form of all.
    I could propose any such kind of thing and claim as much validity. You have a belief, but it's not an argument nor empirical evidence. Who knows what's correct?

    I think it's fine for you to believe it, but arguing it convicingly... that's much more difficult.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  4. #624
    Senior Member Qre:us's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    But I think the core of what you've said here is important -- we need to really step back from the stories and detach from our familiarity, so we can see them from various perspectives. Samson is viewed as this hero, but realistically you CAN view it from the Philistine viewpoint... here's this guy who was a leader of the enemy but also very much a hedonist himself, who killed many of their men, burned down their fields, etc., humiliated them... and finally fell into their hands through a really stupid ruse (where Delilah kept tying him up, and finally cut his hair).

    Putting out his eyes and making a public spectacle of him, to show their superiority and attain some kind of satisfaction after all the damage he wrought them, isn't really atypical for the times... and even today when the US killed Osama Bin Laden (for example), there was a lot of complaints about how he wasn't really made to pay for what he had done to us. Time changes, but times don't change.

    I'm big on stepping around and viewing things from many angles, to get outside our own heads.

    So yeah, you can view Samson as "Jihad'ing" out here, although he was already pretty much ruined by having lost his power and his sight and his freedom unlike most jihadists who are still healthy and would have various options besides suicide bombing.
    Tbh, this doesn't strike as getting out of one's own head/perspective/acculturation. You sympathize with Samson, giving him understanding that he was driven to do it, because given his "condition", the assumption you present is, "who wouldn't?" as if that is the natural (just) conclusion.

    Yet, when it comes to jihadists, the starting point is that of skepticism and assumptions that bias against any sympathy for them (which is legitimate, and understandable). My point is that I would extend that same consideration to interpreting the Samson scenario, which you exempt, which is the curious thing about it.

    Jihadists, whether they're healthy (health, here, is not just physical health) and have various options available to them, perhaps, perhaps not. It is a starting assumption, and a skewed perspective, though. Which is an assumption that you afford to one group of suicide killers, not another.

  5. #625
    FRACTALICIOUS phobik's Avatar
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    To avoid criticism, do nothing, say nothing, be nothing.
    ~ Elbert Hubbard

    Music provides one of the clearest examples of a much deeper relation between mathematics and human experience.
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  6. #626
    The Green Jolly Robin H.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    How is this empirical? Just because various types of people can exhibit what we could label as divine inspiration (which is already "begging the question")?

    I think it says something about human beings, but we have no idea what that is -- just as it seems just as viable to believe the "bright white light" after death could be anything from some kind of divine experience to some kind of final series of neural firings triggered by lack of oxygen. It's obviously SOMETHING... but we can't seem to pinpoint anything "empirically."



    I could propose any such kind of thing and claim as much validity. You have a belief, but it's not an argument nor empirical evidence. Who knows what's correct?

    I think it's fine for you to believe it, but arguing it convicingly... that's much more difficult.
    No doubt. I'm just explaining it as how it seems empirical. In truth any objective measurement is still subjective, it's just less so subjective since objectivity and subjectivity in absolute forms cannot exist, only as a continuum or a tendency towards one or the other...speaking mathematically of course.

    But yes...I'm just explaining how I see it as potentially empirical since prayer and faith actually improve cognitive functioning, among other things, but it doesn't matter who you pray to or what you believe in of course, only that you do.

    And by essence I mean that thing which is universal among all things of a type.

    For instance, a neural network and a network of stars have certain common objective similarities that can be measured mathmatically...which is the essence of all networks if we use inductions.

    Similarly the Baghavad Gita and the Bible have similar mathematical constructs or qualitative and quantitative states which are the same between them and the Dao which are objective which is the essence of divinity and measurable.
    "i shut the door and in the morning
    it was open
    -the end"




    Olemn slammed his hammer and from the sparks on the metal of his anvil came the spheres of the heavens.

    Sayrah blew life into the spheres and they moved. From her wheel she weaved the names of people in to mystery.

  7. #627
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    Quote Originally Posted by GarrotTheThief View Post
    ...objectivity and subjectivity in absolute forms cannot exist, only as a continuum or a tendency towards one or the other...speaking mathematically of course.
    That's fair, it's always on some kind of scale and a mix.

    But yes...I'm just explaining how I see it as potentially empirical since prayer and faith actually improve cognitive functioning, among other things, but it doesn't matter who you pray to or what you believe in of course, only that you do.
    Well, it's empirical yes in the sense they detect better functioning, but it's as you state... it seems to be more the attitude since the object of the attention appears to be irrelevant. They just don't have an exact mechanism in place for why this occurs, so it's still vague.

    Kind of like marriage when you're old, statistically you live longer (I believe) versus just being alone.


    @phobik: More coffee drinking icons, for me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Qre:us View Post
    Tbh, this doesn't strike as getting out of one's own head/perspective/acculturation. You sympathize with Samson, giving him understanding that he was driven to do it, because given his "condition", the assumption you present is, "who wouldn't?" as if that is the natural (just) conclusion.
    Wow. That's a helluva of a LOT of assumption about my "sympathies" here based on a single post that was never meant nor could be explicitly clear about all the possibilities of how I could view this single anecdote, especially when I didn't know you were going to take this particular tactic.

    Yet, when it comes to jihadists, the starting point is that of skepticism and assumptions that bias against any sympathy for them (which is legitimate, and understandable).
    Seriously? See above.

    Jihadists, whether they're healthy (health, here, is not just physical health) and have various options available to them, perhaps, perhaps not. It is a starting assumption, and a skewed perspective, though. Which is an assumption that you afford to one group of suicide killers, not another.
    Your example, not mine, and I was using the framework you presented. Please don't assume it's my single view, thanks.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft
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  8. #628
    Senior Member Qre:us's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GarrotTheThief View Post
    the essence of all things seems to be hidden behind a blanket of form. I Would expect the maker to have the most unobservable essence and thereby the most formless form of all.
    So, then, seek and ye shall not find?

    Modus tollens.
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  9. #629
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    Quote Originally Posted by GarrotTheThief View Post
    the essence of all things seems to be hidden behind a blanket of form. I Would expect the maker to have the most unobservable essence and thereby the most formless form of all.
    Form is emptiness, emptiness is form.

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  10. #630
    FRACTALICIOUS phobik's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post

    @phobik: More coffee drinking icons, for me.
    To avoid criticism, do nothing, say nothing, be nothing.
    ~ Elbert Hubbard

    Music provides one of the clearest examples of a much deeper relation between mathematics and human experience.

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