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Thread: The GOD Thread~

  1. #611
    The Dark Lord The Wailing Specter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by iNtrovert View Post
    I wasn't taking about all religions just the one we were discussing. For there to be a false dichotomy there needs to be a third option related to the acceptance or denile of the Bible since that is what I was dealing with specifically. The Quran doesn't apply to a discussion about the Christian Bible nor does the punishment related to other religions.
    Even if we only focus on your chosen belief system, there are more than two options. For starters, one may never hear of the Bible, and thus be able to accept or reject it. Then, there are those who hear of the Bible, yet suspend judgment due to a lack of information. Then there are different degrees of acceptance, one person may accept the book as literal, while another may accept it as metaphorical, and there are literally thousands of variants of acceptance between the two. There are also disagreements between protestants and Catholics as to what constitutes a full bible. Some denominations are lenient and open-minded enough to say they do not know if their level of acceptance is correct, and then there are some denominations which only accept similar denomination, and there are also denominations which explicitly state that only their denomination is correct. The list goes on and on.

    Bringing in other faith systems like the Quran highlights that it would even be premature to assume that the Bible is the book you should look at for God, if there is in fact one God. There could be many gods or none at all.

    Even if the ancient Hebrews were expressing a knowledge of a higher being, much of the mythology chronicled in their book is contradictory and full of atrocities. Either the being they are describing is nonexistent, or grossly misrepresented.
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  2. #612
    The Dark Lord The Wailing Specter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by iNtrovert View Post
    When was a baby ever smashed against the rocks? It was said in the same sprit that almost any person who just had their entire civilization destroyed to it's foundation would wish death upon their captors. I’m more than sure the survivors had their children ripped from their arms and killed but not only is it never condoned in the bible by that verse It also never happened.
    The context here is that Jerusalem is preparing to take revenge upon Babylon for the capture of Jerusalem. What is appalling here is the assumption that the children of the captors are somehow guilty and deserve death, when only a few people are guilty, namely the leadership of the Babylonians. It would have been far more merciful to instruct the Jews to take children under 12 under their wing and to raise them as their own. This brings up an interesting point, however. If God was protecting Jerusalem, and has the power to will anything into existence, why didn't her protect Jerusalem with a force-field radius which allowed no invaders to enter?





    And in another example of child-killing:
    @iNtrovert
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    I say this as a reminder to myself, but this goes for everyone:

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  3. #613
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    Quote Originally Posted by iNtrovert View Post
    When was a baby ever smashed against the rocks? It was said in the same sprit that almost any person who just had their entire civilization destroyed to it's foundation would wish death upon their captors. I’m more than sure the survivors had their children ripped from their arms and killed but not only is it never condoned in the bible by that verse It also never happened.
    Can you explain a little better about what you mean when you say, "it also never happened?" since you also admit you are sure this did happen? (I think it was pretty common practice to kill the males and perhaps the children, while taking the women as your own to produce indigenous women, etc.) It was a pretty violent, stark world in that sense. I'm having trouble understanding your meaning.

    As a prime example of violence, David said many wonderful things about his enemies and actually carried them out; he was an interesting figure, pretty ruthless in battle and fighting enemies but unable to appropriate father his own family. He was also referred to as a "man after God's own heart" (which is repeated endlessly in church sermons today), so understandably people tend to view his words and behavior as having God's approval aside from his obvious blunders like his affair with Bathsheba and accompanying murder of her husband. Violence seems inherent to the accounts in the Old Testament, and some of that violence was supposedly ordered by God.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

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  4. #614
    Senior Member Qre:us's Avatar
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    Suicide killer, the OG: Samson (Judges 16:28-30)
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qre:us View Post
    Suicide killer, the OG: Samson (Judges 16:28-30)
    Well, that was presented as a disfigured Samson striking one final blow against the godless pagans who had put out his eyes and captured him, so here he was killing the rulers and any civilians within it as they justly deserved for partying in front of their pagan deity and mocking him and God -- in fact, according to the passage, "more men than he had killed in his lifetime."

    Which was a lot of people. In one event alone, Samson had supposedly killed 1000 philistines with a bone(Judges 15:15):

    And he found a new jawbone of an ass, and put forth his hand, and took it, and slew a thousand men therewith..
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft
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  6. #616
    Senior Member Nicodemus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Can you explain a little better about what you mean when you say, "it also never happened?" since you also admit you are sure this did happen? (I think it was pretty common practice to kill the males and perhaps the children, while taking the women as your own to produce indigenous women, etc.) It was a pretty violent, stark world in that sense. I'm having trouble understanding your meaning.

    As a prime example of violence, David said many wonderful things about his enemies and actually carried them out; he was an interesting figure, pretty ruthless in battle and fighting enemies but unable to appropriate father his own family. He was also referred to as a "man after God's own heart" (which is repeated endlessly in church sermons today), so understandably people tend to view his words and behavior as having God's approval aside from his obvious blunders like his affair with Bathsheba and accompanying murder of her husband. Violence seems inherent to the accounts in the Old Testament, and some of that violence was supposedly ordered by God.
    To people interested in David, I recommend Stefan Heym's The King David Report. It makes sense (and a mockery) of all the inconsitencies which can be found about him the Bible.
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  7. #617
    The Green Jolly Robin H.
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    The way I see it is that every religion/spirituality/creed has parts which are divinely inspired just as any work and parts which are corrupt. This to me is empirical evidence of a higher one above us or a loving creator which is really a leap of faith.

    Yet still considering the fact our ontology is contingent on spiritualism and you may see it otherwise, or not - after all if it were not for religious convictions of certain said people we would not have or be here today the way that we are - Isaac, Galileo, Einstein, Tesla, Joan of Arc, Cleopatra - all of them spiritualists at heart, as shamanistic as a bushman yet men/women of science too.

    It is as if 10,000 fingers point to a throne upon which the maker dwells, even science, and we argue about the fingers, we see the fingers for the moon, as Bruce Lee would say.

    It is as if there is a divine source which is the purest light and we see only different wavelengths as that light moves through a prism and argue about them instead of seeing it all in its glorious totality.
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    Olemn slammed his hammer and from the sparks on the metal of his anvil came the spheres of the heavens.

    Sayrah blew life into the spheres and they moved. From her wheel she weaved the names of people in to mystery.

  8. #618
    Senior Member Qre:us's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Well, that was presented as a disfigured Samson striking one final blow against the godless pagans who had put out his eyes and captured him, so here he was killing the rulers and any civilians within it as they justly deserved for partying in front of their pagan deity and mocking him and God -- in fact, according to the passage, "more men than he had killed in his lifetime."
    I'd wager my sanity that, that is the motivation for all suicide killers, feeling oppressed and scarred by the oppressors, until they decide to take matters into their own hands, and sacrifice their own life, for the life of the "enemies", because the enemies justly deserved it, for mocking them and their god/doctrine/what have you..........

    It ain't just them cray cray Jihadists. Sanctioned in the Bible.

    Quote Originally Posted by GarrotTheThief View Post
    It is as if there is a divine source which is the purest light and we see only different wavelengths as that light moves through a prism and argue about them instead of seeing it all in its glorious totality.
    God likes to play hide and seek.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nicodemus View Post
    To people interested in David, I recommend Stefan Heym's The King David Report. It makes sense (and a mockery) of all the inconsitencies which can be found about him the Bible.
    Well, I don't care much about mockeries, as a matter of course.

    I just want the criticism/reasoning to be sensible.

    Quote Originally Posted by Qre:us View Post
    I'd wager my sanity that, that is the motivation for all suicide killers, feeling oppressed and scarred by the oppressors, until they decide to take matters into their own hands, and sacrifice their own life, for the life of the "enemies", because the enemies justly deserved it, for mocking them and their god/doctrine/what have you..........

    It ain't just them cray cray Jihadists. Sanctioned in the Bible.
    Again, I'm not much into mockeries.

    But I think the core of what you've said here is important -- we need to really step back from the stories and detach from our familiarity, so we can see them from various perspectives. Samson is viewed as this hero, but realistically you CAN view it from the Philistine viewpoint... here's this guy who was a leader of the enemy but also very much a hedonist himself, who killed many of their men, burned down their fields, etc., humiliated them... and finally fell into their hands through a really stupid ruse (where Delilah kept tying him up, and finally cut his hair).

    Putting out his eyes and making a public spectacle of him, to show their superiority and attain some kind of satisfaction after all the damage he wrought them, isn't really atypical for the times... and even today when the US killed Osama Bin Laden (for example), there was a lot of complaints about how he wasn't really made to pay for what he had done to us. Time changes, but times don't change.

    I'm big on stepping around and viewing things from many angles, to get outside our own heads.

    So yeah, you can view Samson as "Jihad'ing" out here, although he was already pretty much ruined by having lost his power and his sight and his freedom unlike most jihadists who are still healthy and would have various options besides suicide bombing.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft
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  10. #620
    Senior Member Nicodemus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Well, I don't care much about mockeries, as a matter of course.

    I just want the criticism/reasoning to be sensible.
    It is. Hence sense (and mockery).

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