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Thread: The GOD Thread~

  1. #601
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by iNtrovert View Post
    True but I said he doesn't seem to agree meaning that his responses to me seem to suggest that he feels Christians are worse when they exhibit less than ideal behavior for religious reasons. Actually that is exactly what he said and I purposely mentioned him in that last post so he could be a part of the conversation. I'm not putting words in his mouth nor was that my intention. I'm simply going off of what he said himself.
    Again?

    I was talking to you, so why are you again trying to tell me what you think Nico thinks? I'd be talking to Nico if I wanted to understand what he thought. I just lost interest in continuing.
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  2. #602
    Senior Member iNtrovert's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Again?

    I was talking to you, so why are you again trying to tell me what you think Nico thinks? I'd be talking to Nico if I wanted to understand what he thought. I just lost interest in continuing.
    Well initially I wasn’t talking to you. My responses where to him and I wasn’t sure if he wanted to continue the conversation and I also wasn't sure if you were aware of his part in the conversation. I already told you I mentioned him so he could join the conversation. I only told you what I felt he was saying because you brought him up a second time and I didn't want you to think I was being malicious in mentioning him. It’s hard to tell what people mean over the internet and I’d rather be through and clear than vague and misunderstood.
    "Re-examine all that you have been told... dismiss that which insults your soul."_Walt Whitman

  3. #603
    Senior Member iNtrovert's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by riva View Post
    The late great Senza told me something in the line of God to be a kind, forgiving person is a new concept of man as their expectation have changed and that it used to be power, obedience, vengeance many millenniums ago.

    I think it makes a lot of sense.

    The Jews were constantly under threat of existence therefore survival was a constant concern; therefore a powerful God is what they wanted who wanted obedience from his followers and vengeance were his lessons to both infidels and his followers who didn't follow him properly - atleast this was the justification for harm that fell on them. However, then God came to Europe. And Europe changed God because what they wanted from God was different esp after the 17th century.
    The cannon of the bible doesn't follow that line of thought. Also, early christian leaders were Jews.
    "Re-examine all that you have been told... dismiss that which insults your soul."_Walt Whitman

  4. #604
    Senior Member riva's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by iNtrovert View Post
    The cannon of the bible doesn't follow that line of thought.
    Do you mean to say that god was always meant to be kind and forgiving? I did see you context based arguments in this thread. You seem to have had a lot of effort put behind finding 'reasons or excuses' to find out why god is the way he is/was in certain books, rather than coming to the conclusion most people arrive at.

    The context people. Have to consider that when he-who-must-not-be-named cursed all those people.
    .

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    Senior Member iNtrovert's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by riva View Post
    Do you mean to say that god was always meant to be kind and forgiving? I did see you context based arguments in this thread. You seem to have had a lot of effort put behind finding 'reasons or excuses' to find out why god is the way he is/was in certain books, rather than coming to the conclusion most people arrive at.

    The context people. Have to consider that when he-who-must-not-be-named cursed all those people.
    I mean to say that the assertion that God’s nature was changed, good or bad, in the Bible is not supported by the canon of the bible. The New Testament which is the primary foundation for Christian doctrine was cannoned in Carthage 397 AD well before the 17th century. The gospels themselves which deal with the fulfillment of the law are dated even before that so 17th Century frame of mind would have no influence over them.

    The reason why I can’t come to the conclusion that “most people arrive at” is because most people are ill-informed. If you want to challenge my assertions that’s a conversation we can have but if you’re going to make a baseless claim about what the bible says on a surface level then I have no reason to take your assertions seriously. Most of my context claims just required a little bit of reading form the actual bible and not snap shop pieces of the text that non-believers post on the internet.
    "Re-examine all that you have been told... dismiss that which insults your soul."_Walt Whitman

  6. #606
    The Dark Lord The Wailing Specter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    Haughtiness and disdain for difference in belief. Some believers seem inclined to take it upon themselves to play the role of God and act as judge, jury, and executioner. Recently it was put forth that non-believers are mentally deficient unless they either convert or kill themselves. Ironically those without a written code of ethics often seem to behave more civilly. That sort of sentiment is what makes me empathize with his tone, regardless of my personal beliefs. Ironically I have come to this thread before to celebrate what I believe, but I find it hostile ground, and certainly not the sort of homage any Divine I believe in would deem virtuous.
    Indeed. Most people use secular morals in this day and age anyway, unless they happen to be simultaneously extremist, fundamentalist, violent, and literalist. Somebody who went around killing homosexuals, accusing people of witchcraft, and enslaving unbelievers would not be allowed in society for very long. Religion had its lessons long ago, but those lessons have not aged well in the least, and society suffers due to those who still cling to such a barbaric and ancient code of ethics rather than following reason and standing on the side of compassion for their fellow man.

    Quote Originally Posted by iNtrovert View Post
    I see well that's too bad. I can only tell you what the bible says, I can't make you accept it. Every person at the very least has the right to accept or deny it.
    You have provided a false dichotomy. I have seen Muslims and other monotheistic religions give the same choice. What about if a Muslim told you, "I see well that's too bad. I can only tell you what the Quran says, I can't make you accept it. Every person at the very least has the right to accept or deny it." Also, what about the myriad of other religions that punish disbelief, including extinct, current, and future faiths. You are failing to see the big picture.
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  7. #607
    The Dark Lord The Wailing Specter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by iNtrovert View Post
    I mean to say that the assertion that God’s nature was changed, good or bad, in the Bible is not supported by the canon of the bible. The New Testament which is the primary foundation for Christian doctrine was cannoned in Carthage 397 AD well before the 17th century. The gospels themselves which deal with the fulfillment of the law are dated even before that so 17th Century frame of mind would have no influence over them.

    The reason why I can’t come to the conclusion that “most people arrive at” is because most people are ill-informed. If you want to challenge my assertions that’s a conversation we can have but if you’re going to make a baseless claim about what the bible says on a surface level then I have no reason to take your assertions seriously. Most of my context claims just required a little bit of reading form the actual bible and not snap shop pieces of the text that non-believers post on the internet.
    Also, when is it ever good to "smash a baby against the rocks"?
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  8. #608
    Senior Member iNtrovert's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Qwan View Post
    You have provided a false dichotomy. I have seen Muslims and other monotheistic religions give the same choice. What about if a Muslim told you, "I see well that's too bad. I can only tell you what the Quran says, I can't make you accept it. Every person at the very least has the right to accept or deny it." Also, what about the myriad of other religions that punish disbelief, including extinct, current, and future faiths. You are failing to see the big picture.
    I wasn't taking about all religions just the one we were discussing. For there to be a false dichotomy there needs to be a third option related to the acceptance or denile of the Bible since that is what I was dealing with specifically. The Quran doesn't apply to a discussion about the Christian Bible nor does the punishment related to other religions.
    "Re-examine all that you have been told... dismiss that which insults your soul."_Walt Whitman

  9. #609
    Senior Member Nicodemus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by iNtrovert View Post
    You can be right for the wrong reasons but then you're just guessing and therefore have no real right to question what other people believe in.
    If you are right for the wrong reasons, you usually think you are right for the right reasons and so not guessing. I think one's 'real right to question what other people believe in', if existent at all, is irrevocable.

    Quote Originally Posted by iNtrovert View Post
    The authority of the bible come from the historical verification of Jesus himself, the eye witness accounts of his miracles, teachings, death, burial, and resurrection are historically verifiable and widely accepted by historians and historical scholars Christians and non-Christians worldwide. In these historical verifiable accounts Jesus affirms the authority of the cannon of the Old Testament making clear references in many of the scriptures in the gospels about them. In addition the bible has made prophecies in the Old Testament abbot Jesus that were fulfilled in the New Testament. The Dead Sea scrolls verified the time gap between the new and Old Testament yet they accurately predict the place of birth of Jesus, how he would die and his rejection. There is also evidence outside the bible for the rapid pace at which Christianity spread after the death of Jesus,as well as Christian rituals and Jesus’s existence

    "Reporting on Emperor Nero's decision to blame the Christians for the fire that had destroyed Rome in A.D. 64, the Roman historian Tacitus wrote:

    Nero fastened the guilt . . . on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of . . . Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judaea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome. . . .5"

    "Tacitus reports Christians derived their name from a historical person called Christus (from the Latin), or Christ. He is said to have "suffered the extreme penalty," obviously alluding to the Roman method of execution known as crucifixion. This is said to have occurred during the reign of Tiberius and by the sentence of Pontius Pilatus. This confirms much of what the Gospels tell us about the death of Jesus."

    There are more references like the letters of Pliny the Younger to Emperor Trajan, and the writings of Josephus, a first century Jewish historian ect.
    That a person named Jesus may have lived is generally considered likely, yes. But his miracles and resurrection are neither 'historically verifiable' nor 'widely accepted by historians', and, of course, there are no extrabiblical sources for their occurrence. Naturally, the gospels are worthless as historical sources, even if they were written by eye-witnesses.

    Quote Originally Posted by iNtrovert View Post
    There is also the fact that not a single apostle recanted belief even in the face of extreme torture and dies horrible deaths for their faith. This points to the fact that they must have seen something miraculous occur. The skeptic argument that they all just thought it happen or hallucinated has been vastly rejected. Jesus was said to appear to large groups of people it is essentially medically impossible and highly improbable that this many people hallucinated the same thing for with many of them had no prior hope to manifest a hallucination of Jesus Christ.
    Have you heard of the Yeti or seen a UFO? People lie, people imagine, people misremember, people tell stories.

    Quote Originally Posted by iNtrovert View Post
    How do we read the bible? We read it like any other book contextually according to the Genre in which it was written considering the purpose,cultural context,and the langue. I’m just going to quote myself here because I’ve pretty much answered this already

    Quote Originally Posted by iNtrovert
    [...] The bible is the documentation about the fall of man, man’s separation from God through sin and the way in which God reconciled himself to man first through the Jews then to the Gentiles.
    Troy has been found, you know. Its existence is a lot less shaky than Christ's. Now, do you believe all the things claimed in the Iliad? I wonder how Zeus feels about Yahweh.

    Quote Originally Posted by iNtrovert View Post
    Nope, It's all perspective. I could say non-believers look worse because they profess to have a moral code superior to that or the religious derived from their own sense of right and wrong. Yet, when they wish death on people in public forums its proof that their moral compass is corrupt which is a tenant of the Christn religion and they look quite foolish.
    Pretensions to a superior moral code are not a necessary element of atheism.

    Quote Originally Posted by iNtrovert View Post
    True but I said he doesn't seem to agree meaning that his responses to me seem to suggest that he feels Christians are worse when they exhibit less than ideal behavior for religious reasons. Actually that is exactly what he said and I purposely mentioned him in that last post so he could be a part of the conversation. I'm not putting words in his mouth nor was that my intention. I'm simply going off of what he said himself.
    What I said is that displaying hypocritical intolerance and hate make one look more wrongheaded than intolerance and hate untainted by hypocrisy.

  10. #610
    Senior Member iNtrovert's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Qwan View Post
    Also, when is it ever good to "smash a baby against the rocks"?
    When was a baby ever smashed against the rocks? It was said in the same sprit that almost any person who just had their entire civilization destroyed to it's foundation would wish death upon their captors. I’m more than sure the survivors had their children ripped from their arms and killed but not only is it never condoned in the bible by that verse It also never happened.
    "Re-examine all that you have been told... dismiss that which insults your soul."_Walt Whitman

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