User Tag List

First 949575859606169 Last

Results 581 to 590 of 873

Thread: The GOD Thread~

  1. #581
    Senior Member Nicodemus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Posts
    9,129

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by iNtrovert View Post
    You don't need to be an expert or genius to read things in context.
    How do you read the Bible, then? And the stories johnny referred to? Because, as a matter of fact, they are objectionable regardless of context.

  2. #582
    i love skylights's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    MBTI
    INFP
    Enneagram
    6w7 so/sx
    Socionics
    EII Ne
    Posts
    7,835

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by iNtrovert View Post
    I see well that's too bad. I can only tell you what the bible says, I can't make you accept it. Every person at the very least has the right to accept or deny it.
    Right, and I appreciate your tolerance. The funny thing to me is that information like what you've shared goes so much farther in terms of getting other people to see, understand, and even agree with one's point of view and beliefs than fear- or guilt-based persuasion. If this were a thread full of positivity, support, knowledge, analysis, and graciousness, I think it would be so much more moving. But discord, disdain, insult... that's not going to draw anyone inward. It's just going to push them away.

  3. #583
    i love skylights's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    MBTI
    INFP
    Enneagram
    6w7 so/sx
    Socionics
    EII Ne
    Posts
    7,835

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Beorn View Post
    And some members either have reading comprehension difficulties or intentionally misrepresent the viewpoints of other members.
    Quite a few people took issue with the content of your post. If there was a miscommunication, it may have been in the way you expressed your ideas. Personally, I have no interest in misrepresenting you. It does nothing to benefit me. If anything, I am communicating here because I have interest in smoothing relations between disparate sides, though perhaps I am not good at it. I simply am a firm believer that one catches more flies with honey.

  4. #584
    Senior Member Nicodemus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Posts
    9,129

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    Right, and I appreciate your tolerance. The funny thing to me is that information like what you've shared goes so much farther in terms of getting other people to see, understand, and even agree with one's point of view and beliefs than fear- or guilt-based persuasion. If this were a thread full of positivity, support, knowledge, analysis, and graciousness, I think it would be so much more moving. But discord, disdain, insult... that's not going to draw anyone inward. It's just going to push them away.
    Mmh, the flavor of Christianity.

  5. #585
    Senior Member iNtrovert's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    MBTI
    Ni
    Enneagram
    4w5 sp/so
    Socionics
    EII
    Posts
    362

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by johnnyyukon View Post
    Yes, I have not devoted my life to the study of the Bible.

    But you're wrong if you think that's a problem.

    Thanks for the summary.
    It's a problem if you are trying to use a text you know little to nothing about to make a point about the religion that follows it. That was my point from the beginning and that is the context in which the summary was framed. You really do have an issue with comprehension don't you? How are you going to validate your feelings about scripture one way or the other when you don't understand them? That’s the equivalent of saying "the laws of mathematics state 0+0 is 8 because when you put one on top of the other they make the number 8". Then when someone says “0+0 is not 8 do you even know what addition is?” you say “Nope I don’t want to be a mathematician but 0+0 does give you 8,anyone with eyes can see that and not knowing how add is not why I think 0+0 is 8”. That is a very big problem. At the very least acquire the tools to have an informed opinion.
    "Re-examine all that you have been told... dismiss that which insults your soul."_Walt Whitman

  6. #586
    Senior Member iNtrovert's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    MBTI
    Ni
    Enneagram
    4w5 sp/so
    Socionics
    EII
    Posts
    362

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Nicodemus View Post
    How do you read the Bible, then? And the stories johnny referred to? Because, as a matter of fact, they are objectionable regardless of context.
    Yes they are...you can object to the entire bible if you want to but if your objection is based on misinformation you don’t have a leg to stand on.

    He quoted those scriptures maliciously completely out of context and looked rather foolish. Then when I called him on it he took the stance to justify his ignorance. It's really no different than people saying "I believe the bible but have never read it and when I do read it I don’t really understand it but that’s ok because whatever it says I agree". He’s saying "well I don’t believe the bible but I’ve never read it and I don’t understand it and that’s ok because whatever it says I don’t agree".
    "Re-examine all that you have been told... dismiss that which insults your soul."_Walt Whitman

  7. #587
    Senior Member iNtrovert's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    MBTI
    Ni
    Enneagram
    4w5 sp/so
    Socionics
    EII
    Posts
    362

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Nicodemus View Post
    Mmh, the flavor of Christianity.
    More like the flavor of humanity. You can't deny that people on both sides tend to be arrogant,intolerant and haughty when it comes to matter of faith or lack thereof. I’ve seen Christians should die be publically mocked and that religion is a brain disease not on typo C but in other arenas. Hateful people will be hateful people and they will use belief or non-belief to justify it.
    "Re-examine all that you have been told... dismiss that which insults your soul."_Walt Whitman

  8. #588
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Posts
    228

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    Haughtiness and disdain for difference in belief. Some believers seem inclined to take it upon themselves to play the role of God and act as judge, jury, and executioner. Recently it was put forth that non-believers are mentally deficient unless they either convert or kill themselves. Ironically those without a written code of ethics often seem to behave more civilly. That sort of sentiment is what makes me empathize with his tone, regardless of my personal beliefs. Ironically I have come to this thread before to celebrate what I believe, but I find it hostile ground, and certainly not the sort of homage any Divine I believe in would deem virtuous.
    It's strange that you see things that way. I see things just the opposite. I see people trying to do a good thing being treated quite rudely. It reminds me of the way George Harrison was treated after he put out his "spiritual" "Living in the Material World" album Although my beliefs are Christian and his were a form of Hinduism, I can identify somewhat with what he encountered. Critics were brutal and said that he was too pious and "preachy." They said they weren't interested in having someone try to push their religious beliefs on them. George being sensitive, either INFJ or INFP I'm pretty sure, let it all affect him. He never did another album like that again. It's a shame. I have all his albums and think it's his best one by far.

    The Light That Has Lighted the World

    I've heard how some people, have said
    that I've changed
    That I'm not what I was
    How it really is a shame
    The thoughts in their heads,
    Manifest on their brow
    Like bad scars from ill feelings
    they themselves arouse
    So hateful of anyone that is happy
    or 'free'
    They live all their lives,
    without looking to see
    The light that has lighted the world

    It's funny how people, just won't
    accept change
    As if nature itself - they'd prefer
    re-arranged
    So hard to move on
    When you're down in a hole
    Where there's so little chance,
    to experience soul

    I'm grateful to anyone,
    that is happy or 'free'
    for giving me hope
    while I'm looking to see

    The light that has lighted the world

    Likes Evee liked this post

  9. #589
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Posts
    4,805

    Default

    Before I get started I think I should remind people that you might have a viewpoint where there are various beliefs that are all equal. To judge my statements you need to be able to remove yourself from that framework and analyze my conclusions working from within both a materialist (Nothing, but physical reality exists) and my own Christian framework.

    Remember I am working from an exclusive framework that views reality in a particular way and the view I'm examining is also exclusive and does not allow for any other viewpoints.
    Therefore, my criticisms of that viewpoint has nothing to do with how I think the world actually is and how people should actually behave.

    If you don't understand this and cannot do this then please don't ever use the term open minded to describe yourself. If you can't shift between viewpoints for the sake of analysis and can't understand when other people are doing that then you are not open minded.


    As a reminder this is what I originally wrote:

    Quote Originally Posted by Beorn View Post
    The existence of God is the ONLY way ANY "fantasy" like significance, love, meaning etc. can be grounded in reality. It's illogical and inconsistent to reject God and then think that it's somehow superior to only pretend that life has significance and not that life is governed by God.

    If there is no God then they're both fantasies and there's really only one way to reject ALL fantasy...



    Thank God most people just choose to be inconsistent, especially since their premise is wrong.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    To be fair, if someone disagrees with your view of reality, it comes across more like this:

    This makes me think that you don't understand what tolerance means.
    Tolerance isn't refusing to disagree with people. It's putting up with them to a certain extent despite your disagreement.

    So your depiction of me as coercive is just an attack based on modern society's misunderstanding of tolerance and has no basis in reality.



    You also erroneously have an "all or nothing" view of the universe. Just because something might not have universal significance across the board for everyone does not mean that it doesn't have personal significance to me in my particular corner of the universe; and that's actually acceptable.
    If I'm working within and analyzing a materialistic framework I'm going to start from a mile high view outside of social conventions. You say personal significance is acceptable and my question is: by what authority? The highest authority in a materialistic framework is social convention? And ultimately what is social convention? Just shit people make up.

    Do you think an individual's pain, or a small community's pain, doesn't matter at all to those people if God does not exist? It affects their quality of life regardless. Or that people can't invest in something with integrity just because it might not have eternal religious significance? For that period in time, for those people, in that place, it does matter and it does impact the quality of their existence.
    Sure, nothing I wrote negates that. Also, in a materialist system none of what you wrote changes the fact that it's still fantasy no matter what the impact. It's not just a matter of religious significance. It's a matter of being connected to a metaphysical reality. So, unless it hasn't been clear already my critique only works with a system that denies metaphysical reality. It doesn't work for pantheists, spiritually minded agnostics, deists etc. By the way, my critique is part of the reason why deists are deists and not atheists.

    You seem to have such a binary view: If you're not agreeing with your particular view of the universe, then you might as well end your life now.
    That's not what I said at all. Remember I'm a Christian and I think suicide is a sin (NOT a mortal sin).
    There is no implied ought in my statement above it's merely a logical conclusion.


    Black and white simplifies decision-making but doesn't really do the topic justice.
    I think my statements are perfectly logical. That doesn't mean that within many contexts they would be inappropriate, damaging, etc.

    There's a lot people say about brutalization that occurs with the loss of universal meaning, but there's quite a bit of brutalization that has occurred in the name of universal meaning since people can now be labeled as enemies opposed to one side's view of truth.
    I mean... your problem is that without God you don't have a universal standard to even judge what happened in the past as brutal. It's just stuff that happened that you personally would have preferred not happened.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nicodemus View Post
    Save us, God, bring back the Middle Ages!
    Now who's being absolutist?
    Remember we're only speaking in terms of fantasy and reality. While you might prefer modern secular "realistic" views of beliefs over the fantastic beliefs of the middle ages the practices seem to be quite the opposite. People in the middle ages embraced reality as they kept their old in the home and the dead close at hand in church graveyards in the west and shrines in the east. In modern times we keep the old and dying away from the rest of society in rest homes and we utilize every means possible to distract us from reality whether it's tv, video games, or online forums.


    Quote Originally Posted by 93JC View Post
    I doubt very much that that's Beorn's actual view of the world. He just wants to win the argument, whether it's by obfuscating, deflecting, using fallacies, putting words into people's mouths...
    Do you care to come down from your well entrenched spot in the peanut gallery and prove to me that your claims aren't baseless?
    Anyone who has read my posts knows I'm willing to admit when I'm wrong about something that can be proven.

    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    If you are currently operating within the paradigm that your/the God is the only truth, then yes, this holds true. Similarly, people who are not within your paradigm cannot understand how you feel so strongly. Our understandings of life outside our paradigms are limited by our paradigms.
    This made me think that you actually understood what I was saying.
    Alas...


    However, once we leave that paradigm... well, significance, love, meaning, beauty, truth... they are all still present, even if you can't see or believe it. Fortunately, those who leave your paradigm discover this.
    This remains true even if you end up being right in the end. Those on the outside still have found significance, love, meaning, and so on. Perhaps they lack something... like an understanding of the world through your eyes.
    Yes, people find personal significance. I never said they didn't. I merely noted that if there is no metaphysical reality than it's all in their heads.


    Moreover, suicide, in the vast majority of cases, has nothing to do with taking a religious stance.
    I never said it did.

    Typically, it is a devastating and irreversible consequence of people suffering in solitude and feeling trapped, hopeless, and like there is no other way out.
    Trust me. I know.

    To me it is highly distasteful bordering on potentially harmful to imply it, however indirectly, as the "only" option for those who are not in agreement with your beliefs to fully live a meaningful life.
    The perceived implication is not only unfair it doesn't even make sense. As I said above there was no implied "ought" in what I wrote. It was merely a logical conclusion based on an if/then scenario. If there is no God (and only material reality) then any notion of significance beyond material reality is fantasy. Therefore there is only one way to reject all fantasy.

    I made pretty clear that's not the outcome I desire and I'm glad material atheist pick and choose what fantasies they believe in rather than being consistent.
    Take the weakest thing in you
    And then beat the bastards with it
    And always hold on when you get love
    So you can let go when you give it
    Likes iNtrovert liked this post

  10. #590
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    MBTI
    INTJ
    Enneagram
    5w6 sp/sx
    Posts
    17,547

    Default

    The empty bickering a couple pages back has been moved to the Graveyard. Please stay on topic, and do try to be civil if not charitable in your remarks.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...
    Likes Evee, gromit, Ene liked this post

Similar Threads

  1. [MBTItm] The haiku thread...
    By anii in forum The NF Idyllic (ENFP, INFP, ENFJ, INFJ)
    Replies: 33
    Last Post: 01-22-2017, 11:03 PM
  2. The Beer Thread
    By Noel in forum The Bonfire
    Replies: 309
    Last Post: 02-03-2010, 12:07 PM
  3. The God in Every Man/Woman
    By mippus in forum Myers-Briggs and Jungian Cognitive Functions
    Replies: 10
    Last Post: 03-04-2008, 03:10 AM
  4. Pot Pies: Food of the Gods?
    By Ivy in forum Home, Garden and Nature
    Replies: 43
    Last Post: 08-13-2007, 12:11 PM
  5. The Hundredth Thread
    By Rajah in forum The Bonfire
    Replies: 3
    Last Post: 04-24-2007, 12:22 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO