User Tag List

First 36444546474856 Last

Results 451 to 460 of 873

Thread: The GOD Thread~

  1. #451
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Posts
    1,628

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by EffEmDoubleyou View Post
    If that's what he meant, he's wrong, because that's not a paradox. It's discounting the value of free will. If you make someone love you, they don't really love you. You need to give them the option not to love you for there to be any value. I don't like what AGA has been saying in this thread, but we need to use better reasoning than her if we want to claim the high ground.
    There is no such thing as free will.

    Every facet of personal identity we associate with the soul, the human brain has a physical analog for. Therefore, the human brain is most likely the soul or the device used to connect us to our souls.

    The human brain is a biological machine. A machine never does anything at random. If the outputs of two brains which received the exact same input are different, then the designs of the individual brains must be different. If the outputs of two brains that function the same way are the same, they must have received different inputs.

    Every decision you make is inevitable. Free will is controlled by the function of your brain and information or experience received from the outside. If you decide to change yourself, you were "destined" to, because the function of your brain, coupled with input information, made you make that decision.

    God's will shall be served no matter what because he is omnipotent, therefore it is not up to you to decide if you go to heaven or hell. Your decisions are influenced by your environment, and even the brain that makes these decisions can be called part of the "environment," since free will is just a mechanical function subject to the same rules of logic as the environment.
    No matter what you do, God will have his way.
    Therefore, if God wants you, you can do nothing.
    You can live your life the same way you did before. The only differences in how you live will be those that God makes, those you cannot change.

    God does not want us to think we know better than him.
    Therefore, we should only do action in God's name if he expressly demands it, not if we independently decide to do it.

    Ergo, the best follower of God does nothing differently than he did before, so you can't distinguish believers and non-believers.


    @AphroditeGoneAwry
    All's I'm trying to do is play Devil's Advocate tho. I'm not taking either stance on this, I'm just trying to reason thru this. You, on the other hand, will not entertain any new idea you don't like or can't understand. Not telling you to believe any differently, just don't discredit ideas you can't digest ISFJ.

  2. #452
    failure to thrive AphroditeGoneAwry's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    MBTI
    INfj
    Enneagram
    451 sx/so
    Socionics
    ENFj Ni
    Posts
    5,651

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Nihilogen View Post
    There is no such thing as free will.

    Every facet of personal identity we associate with the soul, the human brain has a physical analog for. Therefore, the human brain is most likely the soul or the device used to connect us to our souls.

    The human brain is a biological machine. A machine never does anything at random. If the outputs of two brains which received the exact same input are different, then the designs of the individual brains must be different. If the outputs of two brains that function the same way are the same, they must have received different inputs.

    Every decision you make is inevitable. Free will is controlled by the function of your brain and information or experience received from the outside. If you decide to change yourself, you were "destined" to, because the function of your brain, coupled with input information, made you make that decision.

    God's will shall be served no matter what because he is omnipotent, therefore it is not up to you to decide if you go to heaven or hell. Your decisions are influenced by your environment, and even the brain that makes these decisions can be called part of the "environment," since free will is just a mechanical function subject to the same rules of logic as the environment.
    No matter what you do, God will have his way.
    Therefore, if God wants you, you can do nothing.
    You can live your life the same way you did before. The only differences in how you live will be those that God makes, those you cannot change.

    God does not want us to think we know better than him.
    Therefore, we should only do action in God's name if he expressly demands it, not if we independently decide to do it.

    Ergo, the best follower of God does nothing differently than he did before, so you can't distinguish believers and non-believers.


    @AphroditeGoneAwry
    All's I'm trying to do is play Devil's Advocate tho. I'm not taking either stance on this, I'm just trying to reason thru this. You, on the other hand, will not entertain any new idea you don't like or can't understand. Not telling you to believe any differently, just don't discredit ideas you can't digest ISFJ.
    I disagree with nearly everything you wrote. That I read, anyway.

    Not trying to be disrespectful here, but did you ever think maybe it's not that I 'can't' digest, but just don't want to waste my time trying to digest?

    OTOH, it's nice you are discussing your thoughts. If you didn't do it in such a disdainful and condescending manner, I'd probably discourse with you.
    Ni/Ti/Fe/Si
    4w5 5w4 1w9
    ~Torah observant, Christ inspired~
    Life Path 11

    The more one loves God, the more it is that having nothing in the world means everything, and the less one loves God, the more it is that having everything in the world means nothing.

    Do not resist an evil person, but to him who strikes you on the one cheek, offer also the other. ~Matthew 5:39

    songofmary.wordpress.com


  3. #453
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Posts
    1,628

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by AphroditeGoneAwry View Post
    Not trying to be disrespectful here, but did you ever think maybe it's not that I 'can't' digest, but just don't want to waste my time trying to digest?

    OTOH, it's nice you are discussing your thoughts. If you didn't do it in such a disdainful and condescending manner, I'd probably discourse with you.
    If you don't want to "waste your time" entertaining new ideas, all you're doing is copy and pasting text from a book and not really trying to process its implications.

    So now I'm the condescending one? Clearly you're projecting.

    Now make a counterargument to my argument and stop making this about who's making time-wasting arguments and who's being condescending.

    And I can tell you're butthurt for having your INFJ-ness questioned.

  4. #454
    failure to thrive AphroditeGoneAwry's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    MBTI
    INfj
    Enneagram
    451 sx/so
    Socionics
    ENFj Ni
    Posts
    5,651

    Default

    ^lol. not. i don't care much about type anymore.

    except i do like intuitive conversation.
    Ni/Ti/Fe/Si
    4w5 5w4 1w9
    ~Torah observant, Christ inspired~
    Life Path 11

    The more one loves God, the more it is that having nothing in the world means everything, and the less one loves God, the more it is that having everything in the world means nothing.

    Do not resist an evil person, but to him who strikes you on the one cheek, offer also the other. ~Matthew 5:39

    songofmary.wordpress.com


  5. #455
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Posts
    1,628

    Default

    Not that God would necessarily intervene with someone's free will if that person was doing something he disapproved of.

    Rather, God's creating that person into the circumstances he develops under and with the unique brain he has would ultimately determine the decisions he made.

    Creation would crush free will, through the logical function of the human brain, not the direct intervention of God. But by extension that is still God predetermining human fate through creation, and "free will" merely means letting Nature take care of things instead of divine power. God lets you sin, but your brain inevitably makes you.

  6. #456
    failure to thrive AphroditeGoneAwry's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    MBTI
    INfj
    Enneagram
    451 sx/so
    Socionics
    ENFj Ni
    Posts
    5,651

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Nihilogen View Post
    Not that God would necessarily intervene with someone's free will if that person was doing something he disapproved of.

    Rather, God's creating that person into the circumstances he develops under and with the unique brain he has would ultimately determine the decisions he made.

    Creation would crush free will, through the logical function of the human brain, not the direct intervention of God. But by extension that is still God predetermining human fate through creation, and "free will" merely means letting Nature take care of things instead of divine power. God lets you sin, but your brain inevitably makes you.
    Yes. But we are given places throughout our lives where we can choose to consciously listen to God and submit to Him. This is called being 'born again'.

    Usually, we subconsciously (or consciously, as is illustrated in many on this thread, for example) refuse to submit to God.

    A cycle will happen. We will go up and down and up and down, until we finally end up down, and in a Pit, needing salvation. This Pit is another final recurring theme/event where we can realize, "Aha! I need God to save me!" And God will be there to provide salvation once again, as He always has and hopefully always will, until the end of time.

    However, we can also choose to stay in the Pit, and set up house in that Pit by adding another addiction, another distraction, another vice, to it. Making us increasingly unhappy over time. Or we can cycle up and down, never being in a terribly bad Pit but never being really happy or good either.

    It's these times when we are in the Pit that part of our earthly selves die, and that can give rebirth to our spiritual selves, if we but cling to God and beg Him for mercy. He watches and waits for this. But it's our choice if we do this or not. Stubbornness and pride often get in the way. Did God make you with stubbornness and pride? Not necessarily. It's like MBTI: we are born with our preferred cognitive functions, but it doesn't dictate our behavior. Our behavior is laid down when an ongoing sequence of 0's and 1's become selected in a pattern, by our free will. That pattern can end up bringing us into submission to God. Or hardening and closing to God.

    God does not make us do this. He wants us to honor and serve and glorify Him. It's why He created us!! But He will not make us do this.

    You cannot rationalize yourself out of the consequences of your behavior by citing God's sovereignty. At least not accurately.
    Ni/Ti/Fe/Si
    4w5 5w4 1w9
    ~Torah observant, Christ inspired~
    Life Path 11

    The more one loves God, the more it is that having nothing in the world means everything, and the less one loves God, the more it is that having everything in the world means nothing.

    Do not resist an evil person, but to him who strikes you on the one cheek, offer also the other. ~Matthew 5:39

    songofmary.wordpress.com


  7. #457
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Posts
    1,628

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by AphroditeGoneAwry View Post
    Yes. But we are given places throughout our lives where we can choose to consciously listen to God and submit to Him. This is called being 'born again'.

    Usually, we subconsciously (or consciously, as is illustrated in many on this thread, for example) refuse to submit to God.


    A cycle will happen. We will go up and down and up and down, until we finally end up down, and in a Pit, needing salvation. This Pit is another final recurring theme/event where we can realize, "Aha! I need God to save me!" And God will be there to provide salvation once again, as He always has and hopefully always will, until the end of time.

    However, we can also choose to stay in the Pit
    , and set up house in that Pit by adding another addiction, another distraction, another vice, to it. Making us increasingly unhappy over time. Or we can cycle up and down, never being in a terribly bad Pit but never being really happy or good either.

    It's these times when we are in the Pit that part of our earthly selves die, and that can give rebirth to our spiritual selves, if we but cling to God and beg Him for mercy. He watches and waits for this. But it's our choice if we do this or not. Stubbornness and pride often get in the way. Did God make you with stubbornness and pride? Not necessarily. It's like MBTI: we are born with our preferred cognitive functions, but it doesn't dictate our behavior. Our behavior is laid down when an ongoing sequence of 0's and 1's become selected in a pattern, by our free will. That pattern can end up bringing us into submission to God. Or hardening and closing to God.

    God does not make us do this. He wants us to honor and serve and glorify Him. It's why He created us!! But He will not make us do this.

    You cannot rationalize yourself out of the consequences of your behavior by citing God's sovereignty. At least not accurately.
    You just pointed out exactly what you're failing to see.

    The brain can be born with a natural predisposition towards pride. Under a certain amount of pressure, or more generally the right conditions, that person will resort to pride.

    Conversely, a person can be born into unfavorable circumstances, but one brain might resort to pride or stubbornness under these same conditions quicker than another.

    By creating the universe with unique brains that function in different ways, and putting us in a universe with these various conditions, God indirectly predetermined our behaviors.

    To say that personal choice and free will are any different than natural predilections or external influences is to ignore the fact that they occur within our brains. You aren't looking at free will objectively, so you're not seeing how inputs to personal choice influence outputs.

    Free will is not magical. We do what we choose freely because the choice is in our brains, but once inside our brains, the "free" choices are once again made slave to whatever desires are dominant in the brain at the time of decision-making, be they benevolent or malevolent.

  8. #458
    failure to thrive AphroditeGoneAwry's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    MBTI
    INfj
    Enneagram
    451 sx/so
    Socionics
    ENFj Ni
    Posts
    5,651

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Nihilogen View Post
    You just pointed out exactly what you're failing to see.

    The brain can be born with a natural predisposition towards pride. Under a certain amount of pressure, or more generally the right conditions, that person will resort to pride.

    Conversely, a person can be born into unfavorable circumstances, but one brain might resort to pride or stubbornness under these same conditions quicker than another.

    By creating the universe with unique brains that function in different ways, and putting us in a universe with these various conditions, God indirectly predetermined our behaviors.

    To say that personal choice and free will are any different than natural predilections or external influences is to ignore the fact that they occur within our brains. You aren't looking at free will objectively, so you're not seeing how inputs to personal choice influence outputs.

    Free will is not magical. We do what we choose freely because the choice is in our brains, but once inside our brains, the "free" choices are once again made slave to whatever desires are dominant in the brain at the time of decision-making, be they benevolent or malevolent.
    First of all, I do not believe God does anything 'indirectly'.

    Did He know who would have a problem with pride? Yes, he did. Because He even gave it a name: The Male.

    Yet God understands that males strength is their strength and pride is their weakness. So He gives them Woman, to help Man see where Man needs help. As Woman submits to Man, Man submits to God. Tis a necessary part of the equation, which perhaps you are overlooking.

    The "desires that are dominant in the brain" do not mandate that we act on them! The whole point Paul was trying to make in most of his preaching and teaching was that man can overcome his fleshly desires! You can have desire, want to act on it, then do God's Will instead. That is an autonomous assertion of certainly free free will.
    Ni/Ti/Fe/Si
    4w5 5w4 1w9
    ~Torah observant, Christ inspired~
    Life Path 11

    The more one loves God, the more it is that having nothing in the world means everything, and the less one loves God, the more it is that having everything in the world means nothing.

    Do not resist an evil person, but to him who strikes you on the one cheek, offer also the other. ~Matthew 5:39

    songofmary.wordpress.com


  9. #459

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Nihilogen View Post
    There is no such thing as free will.

    Every facet of personal identity we associate with the soul, the human brain has a physical analog for. Therefore, the human brain is most likely the soul or the device used to connect us to our souls.
    That may very well be a sincere belief of yours. But to assert it as truth is to make as many assumptions upon assumptions as anyone claiming the existence of a soul would need to make. You may have reasoned it out for yourself, but actual science hasn't come close to tackling that subject.
    Everybody have fun tonight. Everybody Wang Chung tonight.

    Johari
    /Nohari

  10. #460
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Posts
    1,628

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by EffEmDoubleyou View Post
    That may very well be a sincere belief of yours. But to assert it as truth is to make as many assumptions upon assumptions as anyone claiming the existence of a soul would need to make. You may have reasoned it out for yourself, but actual science hasn't come close to tackling that subject.
    @AphroditeGoneAwry

    *sigh*.....If you choose to act on God's will instead of the "desires dominant in the brain," then that is proof that the other desires were not really dominant. If you act on a desire, then that desire is "dominant" in that circumstance.

    What I mean by "desires dominant in the brain" is intended to mean "the desires in your brain that you act on."

    You refuse to see the mechanisms of free will objectively. Instead of trying to understand my assertions, you attempt to sate them with a subjective point of view.
    Your arguments are completely confined to a frame of within a human's free will. I am analyzing the devices by which a person's free will works.


    Even if the brain, which God created, is not responsible for our decisions, that would imply that the soul is. The soul was also created by God. Due to the given soul's unique characteristics, the decisions it will choose to make in a given situation are predetermined because it was designed to work the way it works.

    If man overcomes his desires, it's by the same mechanisms through which he falls to them. Godly decisions are made by the same mechanisms of choice through which ungodly ones are.

Similar Threads

  1. [MBTItm] The haiku thread...
    By anii in forum The NF Idyllic (ENFP, INFP, ENFJ, INFJ)
    Replies: 33
    Last Post: 01-22-2017, 11:03 PM
  2. The Beer Thread
    By Noel in forum The Bonfire
    Replies: 309
    Last Post: 02-03-2010, 12:07 PM
  3. The God in Every Man/Woman
    By mippus in forum Myers-Briggs and Jungian Cognitive Functions
    Replies: 10
    Last Post: 03-04-2008, 03:10 AM
  4. Pot Pies: Food of the Gods?
    By Ivy in forum Home, Garden and Nature
    Replies: 43
    Last Post: 08-13-2007, 12:11 PM
  5. The Hundredth Thread
    By Rajah in forum The Bonfire
    Replies: 3
    Last Post: 04-24-2007, 12:22 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO