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  1. #11
    Senior Member Alea_iacta_est's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zangetshumody View Post
    I take real to mean corporeal.
    Then, by that very definition, is non-existence real?

  2. #12
    Senior Member Zangetshumody's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alea_iacta_est View Post
    Then, by that very definition, is non-existence real?
    The most basic root of what I take "non-existence" to mean, is something that leaves no record of itself upon anything. With no corporeal repository to bear the experience, some non-existent thing will have no real expression of any kind.

    In this way spirit is real, because we have an experience of truth; even if later some may declare to have lost this experience as they tie themselves into some peculiar linguistic cul de sac.
    Last edited by Zangetshumody; 02-17-2014 at 12:16 AM. Reason: added: in this way...
    Escape powerful genjitsu by averting your gaze from the eyes.

  3. #13
    Senior Member Alea_iacta_est's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zangetshumody View Post
    The most basic root of what I take "non-existence" to mean, is something that leaves no record of itself upon anything. With no corporeal repository to bear the experience, some non-existent thing will have no real expression of any kind.
    It's interesting, isn't it?

  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alea_iacta_est View Post
    Then, by that very definition, is non-existence real?
    My guess: non-existence exists, but is not real?

    Non-existence would by definition need to exist as a boundary to curb that which does exist, even though it isn't technically "real." What's your stance on this?

  5. #15
    Senior Member Alea_iacta_est's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nihilogen View Post
    My guess: non-existence exists, but is not real?

    Non-existence would by definition need to exist as a boundary to curb that which does exist, even though it isn't technically "real." What's your stance on this?
    To begin, I'm going to ask you what you recall before you were born. The obvious answer to this question is that you recall absolutely nothing, which actually provides more insight than one might think. Before we were born, we, the consciousness that occupies our vessel, simply weren't there. We didn't exist before we were born, but then we existed, a testament to a very antiquated paradox. How does something come from nothing? Something isn't made of nothing, because it would still be nothing, so how is this possible? The very fact that you are sitting here reading this very post definitely states that your consciousness, indeed, came from nothing and then became something, so what else has come from nothing? One may conclude that all of existence has simply arisen out of this abyss we call "nonexistence". Well, as it so happens, nonexistence doesn't exist, nor does it not exist, and the very fact that we are here illustrates this concept. If we exist, then that means that things that aren't here now have the possibility to exist (as evidence to the fact that we had the possibility to exist and then we existed). But, nothing can't have potential, for if nothing has potential, it adopts a property of something; therefore, anything that has potential exists, and anything that doesn't have potential or properties doesn't exist. But, as we just mentioned, we came out of nonexistence; we had potential, so anything else that could possibly exist must indeed exist along with us. If nothing has the possibility to exist, then nothing, quite paradoxically, isn't nothing. This means that nonexistence must not be nonexistence, for everything in nonexistence has the potential to exist.
    Reintegration

  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alea_iacta_est View Post
    Reintegration
    How does the intrinsic value of non-existence mean it doesn't exist? Within existence there is lack of information as to what exists; if hypothetically all information in the universe were known, that of which you have no information of existence does not exist, but you have information that it does not exist, so its non-existence exists in the world of existence; therefore, non-existence exists.

  7. #17
    Senior Member Alea_iacta_est's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nihilogen View Post
    How does the intrinsic value of non-existence mean it doesn't exist? Within existence there is lack of information as to what exists; if hypothetically all information in the universe were known, that of which you have no information of existence does not exist, but you have information that it does not exist, so its non-existence exists in the world of existence; therefore, non-existence exists.
    Because non-existence would be a domain of existence still. Your hypothesis assumes that it is possible to know everything in the universe, which is implausible due to the immense possibility and expansion of existence and its intrinsic data. You are arguing informational non-existence, the state of information not being present, I am arguing situational non-existence, the actual state of non-existence being an actual domain that we reach when we die, from an atheistic standpoint (often referred to as the abyss or oblivion).

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    Science: cannot be proven
    Math: A multiple of i

  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alea_iacta_est View Post
    Because non-existence would be a domain of existence still. Your hypothesis assumes that it is possible to know everything in the universe, which is implausible due to the immense possibility and expansion of existence and its intrinsic data. You are arguing informational non-existence, the state of information not being present, I am arguing situational non-existence, the actual state of non-existence being an actual domain that we reach when we die, from an atheistic standpoint (often referred to as the abyss or oblivion).
    True, but to analyze everything no undue assumptions must be made and the analysis must be as objective as possible (ikr look who's talking to the INTJ). To make sure the analysis is flawless, all relevant information must be known. To analyze existence itself, all information of existence must be known. It can't really be known, but it can be hypothetically known. If you hypothetically knew all information in existence, the very lack of information on what didn't exist would actually be hypothetical information about non-existence, so non-existence would exist.

    I see what you mean tho, but even if I imagined I hypothetically didn't exist that state would be a state of existence because I just identified it in the hypothetical. While in this state I couldn't know anything and so I couldn't prove it existed, but I can disconnect from trying to imagine the experience and I can identify that it does exist.

  10. #20
    Senior Member Alea_iacta_est's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nihilogen View Post
    True, but to analyze everything no undue assumptions must be made and the analysis must be as objective as possible (ikr look who's talking to the INTJ). To make sure the analysis is flawless, all relevant information must be known. To analyze existence itself, all information of existence must be known. It can't really be known, but it can be hypothetically known. If you hypothetically knew all information in existence, the very lack of information on what didn't exist would actually be hypothetical information about non-existence, so non-existence would exist.

    I see what you mean tho, but even if I imagined I hypothetically didn't exist that state would be a state of existence because I just identified it in the hypothetical. While in this state I couldn't know anything and so I couldn't prove it existed, but I can disconnect from trying to imagine the experience and I can identify that it does exist.
    I built this as a subjective construct, so it is the child of Ni, not Te. It is one interpretation of events among a slew of others, but interesting nonetheless. I have used this subjective construct to explain occurrences after death under specific assumptions that might be through a process called "Reintegration" that is essentially the changing of the point of view from one particular mind, body, and consciousness to the other. (It's reincarnation without the spiritual bullshit).

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