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  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    Nah. Not right now. I have a bunch of stuff to cook and we'd really have to get into a lot of details about access to stuff and how much stuff costs in respective places. I have been poor in my area and you have not, so even though it's anecdotal evidence on my part, your stuff isn't super-relevent for me. And really, my opinions and judgements don't matter to you in any material way. So I'm going to do my annoying domestic stuff and listen to John Green explain the New Deal on youtube.
    My main point was independent of the small details. It would still apply in your area.

    Anyway sure, have fun doing whatever :p

  2. #32
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by valaki View Post
    My main point was independent of the small details. It would still apply in your area.

    Anyway sure, have fun doing whatever :p
    Until I can carry my kids in my spandex pants, I am going to have to stick with my minivan.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    Until I can carry my kids in my spandex pants, I am going to have to stick with my minivan.
    I wouldn't take kids for my workout.

    See, it's not as simple, as this idea of a mother with kids...

    Another way to put my main point is, not everyone lives by the standards.

  4. #34
    Senior Member prplchknz's Avatar
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    well the idea that we can't be naked all the time because of law reasons isn't good. or maybe it is, because if we were just naked all the time we would have to come up with some other arbituary system to judge people on the spot. so really there's no getting around snap judgements
    In no likes experiment.

    that is all

    i dunno what else to say so

  5. #35
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by prplchknz View Post
    life?

    I mean obviously it's true now, but maybe it wasn't before like I wonder if we're conditioned to only judge based on appearances? and those appearances have to fall within a certain spectrum and if they don't you're screwed. I'm gonna just become a hermit and not talk to anyone.
    I want to also be a hermit and not talk to anyone.

    At least I had the Brooke Shields eyebrows during the 80's, but I didn't have the poofy hair or boobs so necessary to that time period. I really loathe the beauty ideals out there, and once had a crush on a really sweet, smart, creative guy who ended up being into bodysculpter women with boob jobs set at 40psi. Some of these images are reinforced for men through pornography and you could brainwash anything through repeated orgasm. I know I look good enough for my age, but I now notice the idolizing of youth and feel a bit meh about that.
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
    Fear of reality creates myopic morality
    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
    (from Blue Velvet)

  6. #36
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    I work with lots of people who've hit the genetic jackpot. They are beautiful by most standards out there. And while I can see what others see about that, it doesn't attract me personally at all. Especially when a great deal of these people are just gaping holes of neediness because they have extremely low levels of self esteem. For a very brief time in my life I managed to hit the ideal in terms of body shape and discovered just how frightening it is to place all your value in something as ephemeral as looks. I was never more neurotic nor more fearful of gaining another year to my birthdate. When looks is all you have you are in a situation you can't win. One day, they will be gone and there's little you can do about it.

    In my job even the very young (early 20's) start identifying their self worth with their looks and go for surgery, botox and fillers. They look like freaks and develop a certain nastiness to their personality. They become envious and fearful or anyone that presents as well or better than them. Thats when the claws come out. It's very sad. Of course there are some physical beauties I work with who do not over identify with their looks and they are indeed something to behold. But they have the realistic notion that this advantage is fleeting at best and they need to develop other interests in life than spotting wrinkles in the mirror.

    To be honest publicised images of beauty aren't a good indicator of attractiveness at all. There is someone for everyone out there. Sure some people are pursued by a larger group but that's a creepy situation in and of itself. From my short stint amoung the beautiful people (note, facial attractiveness is often overlooked if the body is right) I realised what a blessing it is to be a plain jane instead.

  7. #37

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    Quote Originally Posted by valaki View Post
    No thoughts on my main point?
    Not to speak for Cafe, but I think she's trying to be polite in not telling you that your points don't really hold up for people who don't live like you. I can't imagine basic communication is less of a priority than the luxury of fashion unless you never have to think about not having either.
    Everybody have fun tonight. Everybody Wang Chung tonight.

    Johari
    /Nohari

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by EffEmDoubleyou View Post
    Not to speak for Cafe, but I think she's trying to be polite in not telling you that your points don't really hold up for people who don't live like you. I can't imagine basic communication is less of a priority than the luxury of fashion unless you never have to think about not having either.
    You misunderstood..... I wasn't talking about fashion, at all. I was talking about doing sports, not fashion. And I'm not seeing your point about devaluing communication. I did not do that. Basic communication is done well by a cheap phone and browsing of the internet is still done better on a PC than on a smartphone, which is what I was also pointing out earlier.

    Also what is this with bringing up the very poor again? It was somewhat irrelevant originally too; my point was about how you don't have to be a yuppie to be able to do sports in sport specific sports clothes instead of jeans or whatever. I was not talking about very poor people with that. I don't think that there would be only two categories, "yuppie" and "very poor".

  9. #39
    Senior Member prplchknz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by valaki View Post
    You misunderstood..... I wasn't talking about fashion, at all. I was talking about doing sports, not fashion. And I'm not seeing your point about devaluing communication. I did not do that. Basic communication is done well by a cheap phone and browsing of the internet is still done better on a PC than on a smartphone, which is what I was also pointing out earlier.

    Also what is this with bringing up the very poor again? It was somewhat irrelevant originally too; my point was about how you don't have to be a yuppie to be able to do sports in sport specific sports clothes instead of jeans or whatever. I was not talking about very poor people with that. I don't think that there would be only two categories, "yuppie" and "very poor".
    It started out as people wearing yoga pants, which cost money. I don't think it was clear at least not to me anyways, that you were talking about sports themselves but rather it seemed as though you were talking about what people typically wear when doing yoga. and @cafe's argument was that people where she lived were too poor to worry about owning yoga pants. not about doing yoga it's self
    @cafe is this true? correct me if I'm wrong.
    In no likes experiment.

    that is all

    i dunno what else to say so

  10. #40
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Where I am, middle class people and up wear specialized clothes for sports. Riding a bicycle can be cheap, but the specialized clothes often are not: more than that they aren't necessary. Unnecessary expenses are for people with extra money. In the summer, you can wear a pair of shorts and a tee shirt you spent less than a dollar on from a thrift shop and be fine riding a bike. Cold weather sporting gear can be even more expensive.

    Here, a lot of fast food places and restaurants require employees to wear black shoes (usually tennis shoes) and black pants (usually black jeans or chinos). Someone wearing black shoes and black pants riding a bicycle has a better than fifty percent chance of working at a fast food place or restaurant and is riding a bike because they can't afford a car, can't afford to fix their car, or their partner/family member with whom they share a car is unable to give them a ride/let them use the car. I've known one or two people to do it because they are afraid of getting fat, but they generally didn't turn down rides when they were offered, especially in bad weather. And they didn't have specialized clothes.

    It's not 100% accurate and it depends how much you are into fitness. I have no idea how things are in other areas, but I've lived in this town for over thirty years. I've watched it decline and, though I'm not very social, my family has been here or in the neighboring counties for generations. I mean, back to one that came over on a boat, served in the Revolutionary war, then managed to settle in Indiana before dying.

    So I know the area and I have a pretty good feel for the people. A lot of the people I know are poor and working class. I know some people that are better off, too. Like my cousin recently was trying to sell over seventy pairs of her daughter's sports shorts on facebook. They are cheap shorts, but they are specialized: they do not meet the dress code for our public schools and over 70 pairs. One kid. I would think it was a typo, but I used to clean her sister's house and that's really not out of line for them.

    I know it hurts people's sensibilities to be categorized based on very surface things. I don't always like it myself, but even with me, it's generally pretty accurate. I dress and look maybe a little younger than I am, but no one is terribly shocked after seeing me to learn that I am a housewife and mother or that my husband is a truck driver. No one would be shocked to learn I'm from a conservative religious background. I drive a mini-van. I wear Danskos, jeans, Lands' End tops. You could guess a lot about me by the way I look.

    My political ideas would probably come as a surprise unless you happened to catch me driving our second car: a compact car with a marriage equality bumper sticker. But usually the only thing people express surprise upon learning about me is my age and the ages of my kids. The fact that I still have all my visible teeth says a lot about my economic situation in this area, as does the fact that they are not perfectly straight or bright white.

    Now my husband, my husband does not look like a college educated fiscal liberal. He does look like a truck driver and no one would be surprised he is from a conservative religious background to look at him unless he was just off work and had had to crawl around on the ground for some reason, which happens sometimes.

    But anyway, my point is that most people do make judgements about us based on how we look and to some degree, those judgements are accurate. I'm sure there are some people who do not make those judgements, but I suspect that even when we think we don't we just aren't doing it consciously. I'm fairly conscious of it because I've been followed around stores like a thief based on how I looked, even though the last time I shop-lifted I was four years old. I've been told by a dentist that he didn't give a shit about me and that I was nothing when I complained about how he was treating my daughter because we were on Medicaid (obviously poor).

    Learning that people are like that was not a pleasant revelation to me, but it was pretty undeniable. I've done what I could to mitigate the negative effects of that kind of thing since I figured it out. Being aware of it gives you a little control over it but no one can completely overcome it. If Oprah can't buy a pricey bag without being talked down to, I hardly think the rest of us are exempt.

    But I am not going to argue it further. Life is too damn short and there are much funner things to do. And virtually anything else I chose to do with my time would be more useful.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

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