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  1. #51
    Senior Member zago's Avatar
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    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Moral_Landscape

    I balked at his TED talk when I first heard about it years ago, but these days I don't see how it couldn't be true. This is pretty much directly related to the questions asked in this thread, and having stumbled across it just now, I think it might be useful.

    Also, apparently he has a challenge (the moral landscape challenge, look it up), in which he is offering 2-20 thousand dollars to anyone who can successfully refute him.

    CHECK IT OUT!

    EDIT: here's a vid to summarize:


  2. #52
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    Default Modern Western Morality and the Deep Morality of the West

    Western morality is based on Ancient Greek philosophy, Judaism, Christianity and the Enlightenment.

    But modern Western morality is based on the invention of the printing press in 1440 and the subsequent Enlightenment of the 17th and 18th centuries.

    Print is coming to an end. And the Printing Works at the end of my street have been closed and replaced by electric computers.

    So the end of print and the subsequent Enlightenment may seem a tragedy for the West, but before the printing press in 1440 and the subsequent Enlightenment, the West was a spoken culture, not a print based culture.

    So as we move deeper into the Electric Age, which has many of the qualities of a spoken culture, the West has the riches of 2,500 years of spoken culture to fall back on.

    So while modern Western morality is coming to an end, the Western morality of our first 2,500 years is coming to new life in the Electric Age.

  3. #53
    Theta Male Julius_Van_Der_Beak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by inventor View Post
    (Unless the US has another military disaster like Vietnam).
    ?
    [Trump's] rhetoric is not an abuse of power. In the same way that it's also not against the law to do a backflip off of the roof of your house onto your concrete driveway. It's just mind-numbingly stupid and, to say the least, counterproductive. - Bush did 9-11


    This is not going to go the way you think....

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  4. #54
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zago View Post
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Moral_Landscape

    I balked at his TED talk when I first heard about it years ago, but these days I don't see how it couldn't be true. This is pretty much directly related to the questions asked in this thread, and having stumbled across it just now, I think it might be useful.

    Also, apparently he has a challenge (the moral landscape challenge, look it up), in which he is offering 2-20 thousand dollars to anyone who can successfully refute him.

    CHECK IT OUT!

    EDIT: here's a vid to summarize:
    Hmmm. That's a lot harder to clarify than James Randi's challenge. I'm not sure I'd enter even if I thought I was right.

    Anyhow, Harris frustrates me, because I actually agree with his ultimate point, and it's a point that I think really needs to be made more often, but his own way of conveying it seems to beg the question.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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  5. #55
    Post Human Post Qlip's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zago View Post
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Moral_Landscape

    I balked at his TED talk when I first heard about it years ago, but these days I don't see how it couldn't be true. This is pretty much directly related to the questions asked in this thread, and having stumbled across it just now, I think it might be useful.

    Also, apparently he has a challenge (the moral landscape challenge, look it up), in which he is offering 2-20 thousand dollars to anyone who can successfully refute him.

    CHECK IT OUT!

    EDIT: here's a vid to summarize:

    I'm not buying it, exactly. Group morality has always been about the survival and propagation of a particular culture. It's a type of meta survival of the fittest. Not about human well-being, but human well-being definitely factors into it.

    Unrelated. It does annoy me that people don't understand this in respect to Biblical moralities. Heaven and hell aren't the facts those particular moralities are based on, they're ideas to distribute moralities. These originally flourished exactly as memes do.

  6. #56
    Senior Member zago's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    Hmmm. That's a lot harder to clarify than James Randi's challenge. I'm not sure I'd enter even if I thought I was right.

    Anyhow, Harris frustrates me, because I actually agree with his ultimate point, and it's a point that I think really needs to be made more often, but his own way of conveying it seems to beg the question.
    I feel the same about Sam Harris but I don't have a problem with what he said in this particular talk. Another one I watched recently had him lead the audience in a "mindfulness exercise." It was creepy and ironic.

    Quote Originally Posted by Qlip View Post
    I'm not buying it, exactly. Group morality has always been about the survival and propagation of a particular culture. It's a type of meta survival of the fittest. Not about human well-being, but human well-being definitely factors into it.
    I don't see your point.

  7. #57
    Post Human Post Qlip's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zago View Post
    I don't see your point.
    I don't agree with him that morality is objective. It may be objective within a framework of certain measures of modes of living, but the modes themselves are only objectively better if they allow a culture to flourish. For this to happen individual well-being is not the only factor.

  8. #58
    Senior Member zago's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qlip View Post
    I don't agree with him that morality is objective. It may be objective within a framework of certain measures of modes of living, but the modes themselves are only objectively better if they allow a culture to flourish. For this to happen individual well-being is not the only factor.
    I think he did take that into account in the talk. He compared it to a chess game; sometimes losing the queen is actually the best move you can make. So while the queen's well-being isn't so good, the rest of the pieces are better off.

  9. #59
    Post Human Post Qlip's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zago View Post
    I think he did take that into account in the talk. He compared it to a chess game; sometimes losing the queen is actually the best move you can make. So while the queen's well-being isn't so good, the rest of the pieces are better off.
    Well, he addressed it, but it still doesn't make it truly objective. I'm guessing he addressed different modes of living in this map of his (I only got to watch part, I needed to take off to a different place, but I have a low quality connection here). When you get as high level as that, the term 'objective' takes on so much shading that the point he's trying to prove doesn't really exist anymore.

    It turns out to be the same old thing: Science can answer moral questions within the framework of several different modes of living, of which your evaluation of from an individual point of view would be based on your own morality. The ideals of quality of living are very wide ranging and you end up weighing what to 'sacrifice' based on numerous values (ecological diversity, efficiency/productivity, individual agency). The relativity is reintroduced.

  10. #60
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    We are now watching in front of us the end of modern Western morality.

    The members of Typology Central are performing for us the end of modern Western morality.

    These members have been compelled by State law to go to go to school to learn to read and write, and in the process have learned to think counter-intuitively and to privilege the eye.

    In essence the educated members of Typology Central have inherited the Enlightenment. We have inherited a way of perceiving.

    But that's all over now and the Enlightenment is now the content of the internet.

    The Enlightenment has been relegated. The individual has been relegated. Privacy is over. Counter-intuitive thought is now an interesting artifact and intuitive thought reigns supreme.

    Just look at mbti - it is entirely intuitive.

    Just look at astrology - it is entirely intuitive.

    God is dead. The book is dead. And modern Western morality is dead. Long live the old/new morality of the West.

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