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  1. #41
    Senior Member danseen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zago View Post
    No, not very much, for several reasons:

    1. A proton is for me what it is for an ancient Aztec. Physics transcends culture. So does rationality and critical thinking. A particularly smart Aztec could have questioned the significance of human sacrifice, even though he was cultured within it. Etc.
    2. All human societies have shared a number of universals that is not hard to find via google search.
    3. Whatever a human's "conceptual scheme" is isn't particularly relevant, but rather somewhat superficial. Happiness is happiness (biologically) regardless of the "about" behind it. That's deep similarity.
    er. yes.

    but then objective things are viewed subjectively. again, basic human neurology...

    you're also saying that:

    - people don't hold different beliefs
    - humans don't possess different physiological temperaments/dispositions
    - humans don't see colours differently
    - humans don't feel pain differently
    - humans don't experience joy and other emotions uniquely

    Seems you see things too literally. When I said (and presumably others in the world, though I can only ever speak for myself) that everything is subjective, it's part fact and part rhetoric. the fact is humans see and perceive things in unique ways, it doesn't mean there are no facts.

    Nobody in his or her right mind, unless s/he could cite evidence of course, would say that Antarctica is a tropical continent. It's nowhere near the Tropics of Cancer and Capricorn, so of course cannot be by definition.

  2. #42
    Senior Member danseen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    The enlightenment, if anything, made racism stronger than it ever was before, so I can't say equality entirely came from that.

    But anyhow, it's not the whole picture. Morals do not fall into a before and after enlightenment box. There are constantly changes going on, with some variation in the speed, but the enlightenment wasn't the only burst of radical thinking in history.
    Yet Enlightenment thinkers didn't provide the philosophical basis for modern liberal democracy (our supposed "perfect" political system lol..), human rights, and the Founding Fathers' beliefs/works?

    i would say the moral order of the West was unchanged largely since ancient times to the early modern era.

  3. #43
    Senior Member zago's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by danseen View Post
    er. yes.

    but then objective things are viewed subjectively. again, basic human neurology...

    you're also saying that:

    - people don't hold different beliefs
    - humans don't possess different physiological temperaments/dispositions
    - humans don't see colours differently
    - humans don't feel pain differently
    - humans don't experience joy and other emotions uniquely

    Seems you see things too literally. When I said (and presumably others in the world, though I can only ever speak for myself) that everything is subjective, it's part fact and part rhetoric. the fact is humans see and perceive things in unique ways, it doesn't mean there are no facts.

    Nobody in his or her right mind, unless s/he could cite evidence of course, would say that Antarctica is a tropical continent. It's nowhere near the Tropics of Cancer and Capricorn, so of course cannot be by definition.
    No, I really didn't say those things. I said a proton is a proton for all people, all cultures share universals, and happiness is a biochemical pathway. I acknowledge that people hold different beliefs, and that is specifically why I (above) called freedom objectively superior to slavery. Because it allows people to promote their own agendas and happiness, which increases happiness overall.

  4. #44
    Senior Member danseen's Avatar
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    But then you asserted that nothing is subjectively perceived.

    As said, everything being subjective doesn't mean nothing can be objective.

  5. #45
    Senior Member danseen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by inventor View Post
    I don't think we believe in any of those things, we just give a good show.
    true, though I would say for the most part we do.

    However, this is just thinking out loud on my part. as morals always do change, just thinking how our current paradigm can or will change.

  6. #46
    Senior Member zago's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by danseen View Post
    But then you asserted that nothing is subjectively perceived.

    As said, everything being subjective doesn't mean nothing can be objective.
    Eh? I didn't assert that nothing is subjectively perceived. Nor do I think you ever said that everything being subjective doesn't mean nothing can be objective. You whole argument was that "everything is subjective so why is freedom better than slavery?" That's why I have been talking about science and such, to try to tell you that things are definitely objective too.

  7. #47
    Senior Member danseen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zago View Post
    Eh? I didn't assert that nothing is subjectively perceived. Nor do I think you ever said that everything being subjective doesn't mean nothing can be objective. You whole argument was that "everything is subjective so why is freedom better than slavery?" That's why I have been talking about science and such, to try to tell you that things are definitely objective too.
    To me at the least, if everything is subjective, then no thing can be objectively better than another.

  8. #48
    Senior Member zago's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by danseen View Post
    To me at the least, if everything is subjective, then no thing can be objectively better than another.
    ..until you realize that pain and pleasure are reality and the obvious, fundamental metrics by which we can determine what is objectively good. Slavery causes more pain and less pleasure than freedom, overall. Freedom is objectively better.

    You wouldn't even be able to conceive of "better" if such a concept weren't real.

    Does a car with its tank full of gas work "better" than a car with its tank full of sugar? Yes--why? Because we need the car for our well being. That's why we made it.

    Does a society with freedom work "better" than one with whips-and-chains slavery? In the same sense, yes. Objectively. For sure. We need free society for our well being, like we need a car. Just a different scale.

    If you accept that humans want pleasure (not to suffer), then some societal systems must be better than others, objectively. And human life, of course, is defined by the drive to experience good things.

    A rock's life is not. Your problem is that you are looking at things from the perspective of a rock. That's pretty much invalid and pointless, but it may appear to you to be more true because, well, it's simpler. Sure, to a rock pain and pleasure don't enter the equation. Human life is without value. It can come and go, no matter. Everyone can be in a state of perpetual agony, tortured for their entire lives. Rock don't care. Rock has no way to prove that this is a bad thing at all. And hey, it's all subjective, right?

    So why do you think the perspective of dead matter is a more true perspective than that of sentience, which knows good and bad?

  9. #49
    Senior Member zago's Avatar
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    I'm beginning to think you are saying all of this to try to escape the responsibility of being human. That's cause for existential despair in all of us. We have the capacity to suffer immensely, for long, long periods of time. Maybe forever. That's completely horrifying. So I wouldn't really blame you for trying to convince yourself that this isn't our reality. To understand that it is our reality means it's up to you to prevent that sort of thing from happening, and you may not be enough. This is where you'll find meaning again, when you do. What happens to us is IMPORTANT. Suffering is real. It can and must be stopped. We are the only ones who can stop it.

  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by danseen View Post
    true, though I would say for the most part we do.

    However, this is just thinking out loud on my part. as morals always do change, just thinking how our current paradigm can or will change.
    I understand. I really do think it will change soon. I feel that seeds of fascism are being set up in the west. (Unless the US has another military disaster like Vietnam) I don't think eugenics will come back as well.

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