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  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by danseen View Post
    - Social equality
    - Human rights
    - Social liberalism
    - Liberal democracy

    .
    I don't think we believe in any of those things, we just give a good show.

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by msg_v2 View Post
    The day is coming soon when we won't need jobs and can just get rich off of competitive StarCraft. Take that, NWO!
    I'm not sure but I think you are teasing me. Anyway, it's either a) government clamps down on the internet or b) people using the internet can limit government participation (by some degree or another).

  3. #33
    Senior Member zago's Avatar
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    The case could definitely made that slavery is still dominant today, we just call it something else. There are different levels of slavery.

  4. #34
    Senior Member danseen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    It seems odd that you are looking to an end to morality as we know it in terms of relatively recent developments being repealed, so to speak. That's not usually how it goes. Morality will be different in the future, but history suggests to me that what will happen is that some things we consider long-standing, normal behavior will be considered abhorrent or crude.

    Here are some examples.

    Eating meat.
    Having a child incidentally.
    Nationalism.
    Gender roles.
    Being religious (for a really Richard Dawkins sort of future).
    Inheriting wealth.
    Physically dangerous sports.
    Denying some set of "intelligent" animals (like apes or cetaceans) autonomy.


    You have to think outside of the box. You have to think of something that would seem totally radical to believe right now, because the things we believe right now were radical once. I think humans push ahead into new territory at a faster rate than they retread their steps.
    I'd think that the Enlightenment led to our current value system. Without that, we wouldn't even have social equality as we know it.

  5. #35
    Senior Member danseen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zago View Post
    Science is subjective? When I let go of a ball, it doesn't particularly matter what my opinion is, does it? The ball falls.

    Subjective things are subjective. Objective things are objective. Go take a cold shower. You need to wake up.



    Why believe in anything if you think everything is subjective?
    yes, so human neurology, the fact people are born into different circumstances, etc. doesn't lend to individual views of the universe?

  6. #36
    Senior Member danseen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Standuble View Post
    You're right I didn't. Your response made very little sense. Were you actually asking why social values can't return to those of the 18th century?
    Yes.

  7. #37
    Senior Member danseen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Typh0n View Post
    Isnt this an objectivistic satement?
    yes, it is. But it doesn't invalidate subjectivity.

  8. #38
    Senior Member zago's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by danseen View Post
    yes, so human neurology, the fact people are born into different circumstances, etc. doesn't lend to individual views of the universe?
    No, not very much, for several reasons:

    1. A proton is for me what it is for an ancient Aztec. Physics transcends culture. So does rationality and critical thinking. A particularly smart Aztec could have questioned the significance of human sacrifice, even though he was cultured within it. Etc.
    2. All human societies have shared a number of universals that is not hard to find via google search.
    3. Whatever a human's "conceptual scheme" is isn't particularly relevant, but rather somewhat superficial. Happiness is happiness (biologically) regardless of the "about" behind it. That's deep similarity.

  9. #39
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    It's not when will Western values of freedom and equality end, it is where do Western values end?

    The answer is pretty clear.

    They end at tribalism, they end at China, they end in Islam, they end at every dictatorship.

    Western values have no place in the tribal conflicts of Syria, Iraq, South Sudan, the Central African Republic.

    The Western value of equality comes to an end in China, although the Chinese have adopted the Western value of economic freedom.

    And Western values come an end in Islam when 57 Islamic States of the Organisation of Islamic Co-0peration (OIC) publicly rejected the Universal Declaration of Human Rights in favour of Sharia.

    And of course Western values come to an end in every tinpot dictatorship.

    However Western values are spreading, and there has never been so many democratic States as exist today.

  10. #40
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by danseen View Post
    I'd think that the Enlightenment led to our current value system. Without that, we wouldn't even have social equality as we know it.
    The enlightenment, if anything, made racism stronger than it ever was before, so I can't say equality entirely came from that.

    But anyhow, it's not the whole picture. Morals do not fall into a before and after enlightenment box. There are constantly changes going on, with some variation in the speed, but the enlightenment wasn't the only burst of radical thinking in history.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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