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  1. #11
    Senior Member Alea_iacta_est's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by danseen View Post
    It depends. what if we decide to discard them? maybe the gay rights movement will be seen to have gone too far? or an increase in obesity will see rampant curbs on what we can eat?

    It's just these ideals are presented as near absolutes, but I wonder if when in the future these will be discarded. It's for people living in the 22nd century or something to live with. haha..
    That's already happening now, and we have absolutely no power to do anything about it because no one seems to care that the government is restricting products to citizens simply based on rampant obesity. If people want to get fat, let them, it's their choice.

  2. #12
    Senior Member zago's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by danseen View Post
    Self-evident to whom?

    I would say that "better" is subjective. Morality doesn't have to be premised on improvement, merely what the many deem fit.
    I had this same discussion yesterday with someone in the man/machine thread. If you think "better" is subjective, I don't particularly envy your state of mind. Not to try to attack you or anything, but you must live in a world of utter confusion. I know because I've been there.

    What you're plainly telling me is that slavery and freedom are basically equal because it's all just subjective, just an opinion. If someone THINKS human sacrifice is good for them, then it IS good for them. That's what you're telling me. And I can almost see your point. But not really.

    There is right and wrong. There is better and worse. Just LOOK. I have trouble explaining it otherwise, but I'll try. It IS self evident, though. That the world is better and happier now than it was in WWII is pretty damn objective, if you ask me. No, I don't think science has a perfect way to prove that yet, but I think it is something that is possible. If you disagree, look up that 3 hour documentary about the Eastern front in WWII, I think it's on youtube. There you'll find a picture of true misery. Things are better now. It's self evident.

    Specifically though, the problem with your case is that we actually have an objective programming. There is a right and a wrong way to make people happy, biologically. All you have to assume is that suffering is bad and happiness is good. Honestly I think that's a safe enough assumption to make. The systems you listed in the OP all have in common that they enable people to choose what makes them happy and protect their own happiness, which is philosophically good, but also historically good. Life under these principles has always been the more prosperous way to exist on this planet.

    I could probably go on, and will continue to think on this question throughout the day. Maybe I'll add more later.

  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by danseen View Post
    er.. you didn't seem to understand.
    You're right I didn't. Your response made very little sense. Were you actually asking why social values can't return to those of the 18th century?

  4. #14
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by danseen View Post
    I guess in the contemporary West, we believe in:

    - Social equality
    - Human rights
    - Social liberalism
    - Liberal democracy

    But when will this end?

    Nothing in life is truly permanent. And we are taught from young that these are “good” ideals, but are they?

    Why can’t slavery or colonialism make a comeback? I'm beginning to think we may see the end of Western morals by the middle of this century.
    Wow, don't get ahead of yourself. The environment I grew up in doesn't really hold those as values. We're not even out of the past age into the one you describe, yet, it's only just been flowering for a few decades (in terms of REALLY manifesting throughout society)... and the valueset before that perpetuated for quite a long time.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  5. #15
    Senior Member danseen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zago View Post
    I had this same discussion yesterday with someone in the man/machine thread. If you think "better" is subjective, I don't particularly envy your state of mind. Not to try to attack you or anything, but you must live in a world of utter confusion. I know because I've been there.

    What you're plainly telling me is that slavery and freedom are basically equal because it's all just subjective, just an opinion. If someone THINKS human sacrifice is good for them, then it IS good for them. That's what you're telling me. And I can almost see your point. But not really.

    There is right and wrong. There is better and worse. Just LOOK. I have trouble explaining it otherwise, but I'll try. It IS self evident, though. That the world is better and happier now than it was in WWII is pretty damn objective, if you ask me. No, I don't think science has a perfect way to prove that yet, but I think it is something that is possible. If you disagree, look up that 3 hour documentary about the Eastern front in WWII, I think it's on youtube. There you'll find a picture of true misery. Things are better now. It's self evident.

    Specifically though, the problem with your case is that we actually have an objective programming. There is a right and a wrong way to make people happy, biologically. All you have to assume is that suffering is bad and happiness is good. Honestly I think that's a safe enough assumption to make. The systems you listed in the OP all have in common that they enable people to choose what makes them happy and protect their own happiness, which is philosophically good, but also historically good. Life under these principles has always been the more prosperous way to exist on this planet.

    I could probably go on, and will continue to think on this question throughout the day. Maybe I'll add more later.
    all things in existence are subjective. this is a fact of both the human condition and the universe.

  6. #16
    Senior Member danseen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Wow, don't get ahead of yourself. The environment I grew up in doesn't really hold those as values. We're not even out of the past age into the one you describe, yet, it's only just been flowering for a few decades (in terms of REALLY manifesting throughout society)... and the valueset before that perpetuated for quite a long time.
    Er.. in my society, we do.

    But then yeah, if your culture is not up to the par of other Western cultures, so be it.

  7. #17
    Senior Member danseen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alea_iacta_est View Post
    That's already happening now, and we have absolutely no power to do anything about it because no one seems to care that the government is restricting products to citizens simply based on rampant obesity. If people want to get fat, let them, it's their choice.
    I personally believe all fatty foods should be banned, but that's a side point. I hardly if ever eat them.

  8. #18
    Senior Member zago's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by danseen View Post
    all things in existence are subjective. this is a fact of both the human condition and the universe.
    Science is subjective? When I let go of a ball, it doesn't particularly matter what my opinion is, does it? The ball falls.

    Subjective things are subjective. Objective things are objective. Go take a cold shower. You need to wake up.

    Quote Originally Posted by danseen View Post
    I personally believe all fatty foods should be banned, but that's a side point. I hardly if ever eat them.
    Why believe in anything if you think everything is subjective?

  9. #19
    reflecting pool Typh0n's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by danseen View Post
    all things in existence are subjective. this is a fact of both the human condition and the universe.
    Isnt this an objectivistic satement?

    Quote Originally Posted by zago View Post

    There is right and wrong. There is better and worse. Just LOOK. I have trouble explaining it otherwise, but I'll try. It IS self evident, though. That the world is better and happier now than it was in WWII is pretty damn objective, if you ask me. No, I don't think science has a perfect way to prove that yet, but I think it is something that is possible. If you disagree, look up that 3 hour documentary about the Eastern front in WWII, I think it's on youtube. There you'll find a picture of true misery. Things are better now. It's self evident.

    Specifically though, the problem with your case is that we actually have an objective programming. There is a right and a wrong way to make people happy, biologically. All you have to assume is that suffering is bad and happiness is good. Honestly I think that's a safe enough assumption to make. The systems you listed in the OP all have in common that they enable people to choose what makes them happy and protect their own happiness, which is philosophically good, but also historically good. Life under these principles has always been the more prosperous way to exist on this planet.
    I pretty much agree, as happiness is an emotion, however I disagree with the idea it can be experienced in a collective fashion in the style of a Nuremburg gathering(not saying this is what you're actually impying though). Happiness, as more and more people are discovering is something which is experienced on an individual basis. At the same time, what makes people happy is pretty much often the same thing, more or less hence a world can be better or worse for people.

  10. #20
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by danseen View Post
    Er.. in my society, we do.

    But then yeah, if your culture is not up to the par of other Western cultures, so be it.
    Well, I wouldn't even say the USA really has "equal values" yet. We're still in the middle of a cultural war on this. And just 25 years ago or so, we were firmly conservative and only the large urban centers could have been called in any way "liberal."

    Then again, it's pretty common knowledge the USA is behind Europe on things like this.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

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