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Thread: Is this hell?

  1. #1
    WhoCares
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    Default Is this hell?

    Just lately I have been forced to revise my thoughts on people. Despite my negative rantings I still believed in the inherent worthiness of people. I wanted to believe that humans are just fallible and its insecurity that causes people to behave as they do. But I simply cannot adhere to that notion any longer. It's become apparent to me just what a dark and hideous world we live in. That inherent worthiness outlook has been replaced by an outlook of inherent evil. And I never believed in the notion of evil before. But lets define it as....the propensity towards exploitation for self centred ends. As this is what I truly believe now drives humanity at large.

    Since humanity is driven to a selfish end and will actively exploit other species, same species and indeed any advantage they think they can, then what is worthy about humanity at all?
    Since this is the society we must all survive it explains why some people just end up as roadkill along the way.
    There is no way of predicting whether or not you will be roadkill as it's highly likely that you can always meet someone smarter, more exploitive and dangerous than you.

    Even people I would once have thought pretty normal have shown me recently that they are of highly questionable character. It seems normalcy is just a mask worn by an enormously narcissistic and psychopathic species and it doesn't take much to remove the mask. It's as simple as allowing someone to feel comfortable in a situation and they instantly and proudly expose just how degenerate they really are. I won't go into details because honestly the details make me sick.

    So given that I live in this place, surrounded by the most dangerous species on the planet (by order of unpredictability and tendency towards violence) what is the difference between this and the mythical hell?

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    Quote Originally Posted by WhoCares View Post
    Just lately I have been forced to revise my thoughts on people. Despite my negative rantings I still believed in the inherent worthiness of people. I wanted to believe that humans are just fallible and its insecurity that causes people to behave as they do. But I simply cannot adhere to that notion any longer. It's become apparent to me just what a dark and hideous world we live in. That inherent worthiness outlook has been replaced by an outlook of inherent evil. And I never believed in the notion of evil before. But lets define it as....the propensity towards exploitation for self centred ends. As this is what I truly believe now drives humanity at large.

    Since humanity is driven to a selfish end and will actively exploit other species, same species and indeed any advantage they think they can, then what is worthy about humanity at all?
    Since this is the society we must all survive it explains why some people just end up as roadkill along the way.
    There is no way of predicting whether or not you will be roadkill as it's highly likely that you can always meet someone smarter, more exploitive and dangerous than you.

    Even people I would once have thought pretty normal have shown me recently that they are of highly questionable character. It seems normalcy is just a mask worn by an enormously narcissistic and psychopathic species and it doesn't take much to remove the mask. It's as simple as allowing someone to feel comfortable in a situation and they instantly and proudly expose just how degenerate they really are. I won't go into details because honestly the details make me sick.

    So given that I live in this place, surrounded by the most dangerous species on the planet (by order of unpredictability and tendency towards violence) what is the difference between this and the mythical hell?
    You are thinking in absolutes and as long as you do you will flip between two extreme opinions on humanity.

    We know of instances in which humanity will not exploit their own species or other species whilst being able to gain advantage by such an exploitation. Think of the vegetarian who abstains from meat despite loving bacon! Think of the very large amounts donated to charity. At the same time, we know of instances of the most selfish depravity.

    Humanity is a mixture of good and evil, if those terms can be applied to us. Put humans in that comfortable situation and they might expose themselves as a degenerate--or sacrifice themselves for what they see as a greater good.
    I hope I'm wrong, but I believe that he is a fraud, and I think despite all of his rhetoric about being a champion of the working class, it will turn out to be hollow -- Bernie Sanders on Trump

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    The difference is you can still help this become a better place for everyone (sure, not on your own, but you can still contribute to it and inspire and encourage people to do the same) and hell is pretty much unchangeable.

    If you ask me if humanity is the problem, I'd say yes, a part of it is the problem, but this doesn't count for ALL of humanity. It seems to me that the biggest problem with society is how uninformed and uneducated lots of people are. This also counts for the most powerful people in the world. When I watch the news and I hear the president of my country make one of his stupid one-liners again, it just makes be cringe and wonder how we can let such an uninformed and uneducated person rule the country. But then I realize it's because the people chose him and it's the people that are uninformed and uneducated as well.

    Now I'm not talking about uninformed and uneducated in an academic sense, like everybody needs to know about physics and philosophy. I work with old and disabled people and I'm sure if politicians would spend a few days doing my work, having conversations with my costumers and listening to their stories, the world would already be a better place. People need to stop only hanging around with people who are just like themselves, stop judging others and get out of their comfort zones. When you see the struggles of others and stop focussing on yourself, you can already start making improvements.

    What then comes to mind is the biggest problem and that happens to be judgmental people. They literally ruin everything, everywhere and in every possible way. Making people feel bad about themselves, inhibiting other people's freedom, spreading hate. I remember a documentary where they told about American missionaries spreading homophobia in African countries, I also remember a documentary about how colonials destroyed sexual freedom in India with their Victorian ideals and I won't even get started on those pro-rape people on the internet nowadays (cause people will get angry with me for being a feminazi). Funny how all these judgmental happen to be uninformed and uneducated, but what do we do about it? I don't know! It's impossible! Judgmental people are the last ones to open up to information and education!

    So my answer would be, no, this isn't hell. You can improve this would by making steps yourself. On a larger scale, getting people in touch with other kinds of people and educating them would also help a lot. But then there is still the problem of judgmental people who ruin everything. These people can't be changed and if you ask me, the only solution would be to send them off to their own colony where they won't bother anyone and where they can be judgmental together. With barbed wire around it so they can't escape. Preferably somewhere on the inside of a volcano.

    Edit: I don't think selfishness is exactly the problem. I think selfishness is pretty much caused by being uneducated and living inside your own 'box'. If not, then there's probably something more going on, like some mental disorder or a lack of mirror neurons. Or maybe these selfish people just hate everybody.
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    It is reality

    The world isn't made up of good and evil. Humans are...well, flawed. Just like anything else on this planet. And there is a raw beauty in seeing and acknowledging that. We're capable of greatness, for sure, but we aint gods. We're equally capable of being insignificant or downright horrible.

    The people who relaxed and let you see their true faces...they're just letting you know that there is more to them, I guess. People spend all day, everyday hiding their complexity and showing only the good parts because society needs them to, in order to function, pull together and do their job - continue our species. There is no time or room for individuals, for that kind of complexity in that. But it is a part of them - a part of you, for that matter. To deny it, to try and carve it out is to..well, self-hate. And at some point, that part of you - especially when not heard and caged for ages - gets out and does its worst.

    There is nothing inherently evil about that part. It's usually a part of the pain, trauma, survival instincts and desires you have. And it has its uses. Much like a child, it just needs to be channeled properly. One way of doing so is to show it to a person you trust, who understands that people aren't saints. And that their dark side is not the devil. That way, it gets the space it needs to actually be productive.

    Granted, being overwhelmed by those 'sides' and seeing them out in the open - in society tolerated ways often - makes me at times very gloomy and depressed as well. We could be so much better. We could do so much more. We are such hypocrites at times, for that matter.

    But then the human race has all the time in the world to improve. And has, in small steps, in history. There is both an ironic ugliness and beauty to the birth of a human being:

    It is a clean slate, free to experience, live and become without bias. And then the world tortures it with life. Yet somehow, it survives, thrives and yes, has those scars to prove it has lived.

    At the same time, the sad truth is also that...well, we have to learn everything all over again. Empathy, surviving without harming others, dealing with disappointment, pain, etc. It's an eternal cycle of failing, mistakes, learning and growing.

    It's beautiful to watch, and yet...seems pointless. It is not, though. It is exactly that that allows us to reinvent everything, find alternatives and...well, teach patience, tolerance and acceptance of the learning process. AS I said...we aint gods. We aint static, perfect, and...well, boring. We're a hot mess, we fail, flail and we get it wrong - but we are going somewhere.

    And we do have the benefit of tradition and society being handed down and I'd like to think that our society, with its impossible standards for those newborn people who are still fucking up and learning, has improved continuously. It does not start from scratch as it is built on the shoulders of our ancestors. And it is there, to guide the newborns through life and have them make *their* improvements on that society.

    And that is an encouraging thought.


    However slow, we may someday just get where you want us to be - or at least have the perfect manual laid out for us while we stumble and fail through life, making that process as quick and efficient as possible

    Practically speaking:

    Your Fi seems to be wrestling with the discrepancies between reality and fantasy. And it is bloody murder to deal with. In time, you may just discover that there is beauty in that flawed world we live in, in a way you never envisioned or considered up to snuff. And that the very process of reality that irritates you so, has some very interesting side-effects that might just make up for it. You'll have to grieve the loss of that perfect standard you have in your head as it makes way for a more...merged, realistic form. And no, it won't be by compromising yourself or your values, I promise. In fact, the vision you hold will likely become an inspiration to work with the tools you have at hand - and its limitations - to make the most out of reality and contribute to that ever changing society

    Aka, don't give up - you do learn to cope with this and even put it to good use. And humanity aint lost just yet

    For now though - feel free to let it all out
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  5. #5
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    Pretty much what othes have said, so I won't repeat it all.

    I guess disillusionment hits hard, the first time, but the clearer picture is found between the two poles rather than humanity being all good or all evil. Likewise, I think it's a blend of selfishness and ignorance that leads to human evil (differing amounts in different people). Humanity is complicated.

    You can either use this as an excuse to disengage, or you can accept it as reality and work to better what you can. The path from innocence to wisdom isn't easy sometimes, but the easy path leads to the hell you fear.
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    We're all just people and we all have our faults. There are a lot of awful things that happen in this world and it can be overwhelming, but if you are down about it, you can start by trying to make a difference. Then you'd know that even in hell there are good people.

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    Senior Member zago's Avatar
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    Scarcity on this planet makes us the monsters we are. We are literally forced to sell each other out to thrive here. We'll let people starve to death if they don't have money to pay us for food. In the end, we haven't much of a choice. The sickest twist of all is the fact that we can see it for what it is, but are helpless (at this point) to beat our merciless DNA. I aptly heard academia described as "urbane savagery" yesterday. We can talk all we want, but in the end we are utterly helpless to change our self serving programming.

    The truth about nature's been known for some 150 years now. It hasn't got any compassion in it--not a shred. We aren't the heroes we think we are. We are ALL psychopaths merely doing whatever best propagates our genetic makeup. When it comes down to push and shove, that's always shown to be the case. There is no selfless act, and all our talk of love, honor, friendship, morality.... is a facade we will readily override if a worthy enough opportunity presents itself. The only reason NOT to believe that is the lies people tell; the stories they make up about their noble reasons for doing things that they themselves are convinced of.

    Yeah, it's hell alright. Let your guard down, get burned. It's as simple as a math equation. Never for a single second believe anyone is being sincere. They never are. They may have even fooled themselves. And the more heartless you are, the more you can deceive, the better off you'll be. But who can live with that? It renders life completely meaningless, except as a cruel, suffering filled game of survival in which you ultimately always whither and die anyway.

    Love, in its forms romantic and platonic, would more aptly be called dependency. In this world of scarcity there is only hate. Our feelings are natures twisted means of manipulating us. To directly state one's needs and demands in a world of intelligence would be too obvious and crude, so we pretend it's love and trick our way to what we want. If you believe otherwise, you simply haven't been crushed enough yet.

    Maybe some say science has ruined the beauty in life by pulling back the curtain, but I think the ugliness was always there on display, if you're unfortunate enough to have the time to look for it. The notion that we aren't animals is a silly one. These words we say weave us into a dream where life isn't what it is.. where it's actually fair, and kind. But oh, the future is bright. Soon we'll have the technology not to have to toil. Soon we'll have the technology to hook wires into our brains and electrostimulate ourselves to the most profound, undying bliss imaginable. Not exactly romantic, but I guess we won't particularly care. When life shows you what it really is, self-annihilation finally does seem the only appealing option.

    I just resent the whole thing, personally. I would rather not exist. I would rather nothing exist. Now that's what I'd call peacefulness. But there's no getting out of existence. Nonexistence can't be experienced, and if I sprang into existence once, it will happen again. And again. Forever. There is only consciousness. Yes, this is hell.

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    How old are you, @WhoCares? If you don't mind. I'm wondering if this happened to you around the same age it did me.

    Amargith has it at Fi thrashing. You can only ride it out and rebuild. Good luck at working through.
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    Life is lived in vanity. It's as if most people are in a cycle of purgatory, debts kick in, mortgages to pay up therefore they have to give up their wants and only go for their needs. People have been raised on television to believe that one day we will all be millionaires, celebrities, etc. But most of us won't. And when our dreams don't come into a reality people become very pissed off. Being told that "You can become anything you want in life" leads people to exploit their surroundings as they try to become the top dog and get out of the cycle they themselves are in or their parents are in think of it as the Survival of the Fittest, acting that way gives people a feeling of hope and authority. The biggest difference is that life ends eventually while a mythical Hell doesn't. That's my two cents.

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    Senior Member OptoGypsy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zago View Post
    Scarcity on this planet makes us the monsters we are. We are literally forced to sell each other out to thrive here. We'll let people starve to death if they don't have money to pay us for food. In the end, we haven't much of a choice. The sickest twist of all is the fact that we can see it for what it is, but are helpless (at this point) to beat our merciless DNA. I aptly heard academia described as "urbane savagery" yesterday. We can talk all we want, but in the end we are utterly helpless to change our self serving programming.

    The truth about nature's been known for some 150 years now. It hasn't got any compassion in it--not a shred. We aren't the heroes we think we are. We are ALL psychopaths merely doing whatever best propagates our genetic makeup. When it comes down to push and shove, that's always shown to be the case. There is no selfless act, and all our talk of love, honor, friendship, morality.... is a facade we will readily override if a worthy enough opportunity presents itself. The only reason NOT to believe that is the lies people tell; the stories they make up about their noble reasons for doing things that they themselves are convinced of.

    Yeah, it's hell alright. Let your guard down, get burned. It's as simple as a math equation. Never for a single second believe anyone is being sincere. They never are. They may have even fooled themselves. And the more heartless you are, the more you can deceive, the better off you'll be. But who can live with that? It renders life completely meaningless, except as a cruel, suffering filled game of survival in which you ultimately always whither and die anyway.

    Love, in its forms romantic and platonic, would more aptly be called dependency. In this world of scarcity there is only hate. Our feelings are natures twisted means of manipulating us. To directly state one's needs and demands in a world of intelligence would be too obvious and crude, so we pretend it's love and trick our way to what we want. If you believe otherwise, you simply haven't been crushed enough yet.

    Maybe some say science has ruined the beauty in life by pulling back the curtain, but I think the ugliness was always there on display, if you're unfortunate enough to have the time to look for it. The notion that we aren't animals is a silly one. These words we say weave us into a dream where life isn't what it is.. where it's actually fair, and kind. But oh, the future is bright. Soon we'll have the technology not to have to toil. Soon we'll have the technology to hook wires into our brains and electrostimulate ourselves to the most profound, undying bliss imaginable. Not exactly romantic, but I guess we won't particularly care. When life shows you what it really is, self-annihilation finally does seem the only appealing option.

    I just resent the whole thing, personally. I would rather not exist. I would rather nothing exist. Now that's what I'd call peacefulness. But there's no getting out of existence. Nonexistence can't be experienced, and if I sprang into existence once, it will happen again. And again. Forever. There is only consciousness. Yes, this is hell.
    Watership Down Nailed it

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