User Tag List

First 23456 Last

Results 31 to 40 of 57

Thread: Is this hell?

  1. #31
    Infinite Bubble
    Guest

    Default

    You can think it's brilliant, or hellish, and that's the way you'll look at it... but there isn't a right answer

    Idealism makes people think we live in an awful place

    And acceptance often makes people think the opposite

  2. #32
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    MBTI
    INTJ
    Enneagram
    953 sp/so
    Posts
    5,708

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by WhoCares View Post
    There are on average 6 days of the month where I get to be a recluse.
    This may be the issue, then. I know it sounds like, "heads I win, tails you lose", but too much extroversion will ensure that an INTJ is annoyed by almost everyone. Lack of time for introversion is much like lack of sleep. I'd assumed excessive introversion because that is by far more common than excessive extroversion for INTJs: my bad.

    The fact you dont agree with my view of humanity doesn't make me a broken individual. It makes me someone who has gone out, been exposed a large cross-section and then come to a conclusion which is entirely my own. Not asking you to subscribe To my thoughts but likewise not asking for a psychological assessment of my perceived normalcy based on posts in a forum either.
    It isn't about whether you are "broken." The title of the thread is, "Is this hell?" The title indicates lack of discernment. I would have the same kind of reply to, "Is this heaven?"

    Quote Originally Posted by zago View Post
    This is victim blaming. The obvious counter is ... so why would people create horrible things to happen to them? State of mind matters a little, sure. It's important to keep the best attitude possible. Possible. People have limits, though. Would you tell a rape victim to shush and stop feeling miserable because it is her fault for creating that perspective of misery? Sorry, I know it would be nice to just choose how you feel, but that's not how shit works. What you've given us is a convenient way for the fortunate to lazily write off the pain that others truly feel.
    No, it isn't victim blaming. Yes, it is an attitude adjustment.

    Note that the focus of my writing is on discernment. I supply no rose-colored glasses. Discernment implies seeing both the good and the bad. If it looks all bad or all good, then one is lying to oneself in some regard or another.

    Look around you and take inventory. What we call civilization is far from utopia; there is still a massive degree of brutal realism. The rules of evolution and nature still dominate.
    So "This is hell" because civilization is not utopia?

    It is what it is. I am not trying to look at it positively or negatively. Last night I wrote a long-winded post about my sense of wonder about the world. Sometimes things are good. However, ugliness is not simply a matter of changing it by trying to frame it in a positive light. Ugliness just IS. That's the bitter pill of life, because we all know damn well how things should be. Life should be good. We should all be happy. Things should be fair. Why wouldn't they be? Who, having not even asked to be born, deserves to suffer?
    The tone of your post was looking at it negatively. So you wrote another post elsewhere that was more positive. The post to which I replied wasn't saying, "It is what it is."

    I agree with "It is what it is." The problem most people have is with discerning "what it is." We tend to project our own idealistic expectations and values on a world that cannot possibly meet them.


    Quote Originally Posted by miauwington View Post
    No offense but I strongly disagree with this idea. I've heard it many times before. Basically what you are saying is that one should delude oneself in order to cope with things. To put it into the extreme : maybe we can all "shift our perspective" on things and then the Nazi's will seem like a bunch of harmless supertroopers. Some people are dicks no matter what colored glasses you're wearing.
    Godwin's Law!


    The main root of frustrations lies within expectations, not perspective. We all have a tendency to expect that things go as planned, and they usually don't. We are even brought up with the idea that we will be happy. Ludicrous ! Expect the unexpected and you will be less disappointed. Great expectations lead to great disappointments.
    I don't disagree with this, except to the extent you differentiate expectations from perspective.

    And another thing : I don't know what world you're living in, but in this one a lot of people are born in poverty and they die in poverty, to name just one more source of misery. Saying that we choose our own hell is incredibly ignorant. But yeah, that probably goes for the odd rich kid that decides to get hooked on smack, but that's hardly representative.
    Waitaminute ... you're responding to my statements about choosing perspectives about people, but now your "misery barometer" is calibrated to materialistic concerns? You manage to use a straw man argument without ever crafting the straw man first, but rather imply the straw man's existence.

    The existence of poverty does not imply that people are evil, nor that the world is hell. Nor does being "in poverty" imply that one is unhappy. More specifically, if one is sick, or hungry/starving, then yes, there is suffering. But there is far more suffering in the realm of human experience than that of the physical/material variety. No, changing your attitude won't end your hunger, but it might make you behave better in the presence of other people and perhaps gain a glimpse of heaven.
    An argument is two people sharing their ignorance.

    A discussion is two people sharing their understanding, even when they disagree.

  3. #33
    Senior Member zago's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    MBTI
    INTP
    Posts
    1,171

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    If it looks all bad or all good, then one is lying to oneself in some regard or another.
    This is our key disagreement then. Rape is all bad. Someone can perhaps delude themselves into trying to say it made them grow somehow or indirectly led them to something good happening. Suffering exists and it is meaningless most of the time. That's bad. That's basically all I have said here. There are undeniably bad elements about how nature has created us. Can you not accept that Bad exists and can be spoken about and focused on with an objective frame of mind?

    So "This is hell" because civilization is not utopia?
    Think you're kind of splitting hairs here. Do you really believe that OP was asking us all if this is the biblical version of hell or anything near it? Plus you're oversimplifying. Civilization isn't just not utopia. It's very far from utopia. There is still a smorgasbord of brutality clearly on display on this planet. My point is that there is no cosmic justification for that, and I deem this world hellish for that reason. It's almost as if we do have some senseless, cruel torturer. Again: having not asked to be born, who deserves suffering?

    The tone of your post was looking at it negatively. So you wrote another post elsewhere that was more positive. The post to which I replied wasn't saying, "It is what it is."

    I agree with "It is what it is." The problem most people have is with discerning "what it is." We tend to project our own idealistic expectations and values on a world that cannot possibly meet them.
    That is a source of suffering, but 1) it isn't the only source and 2) why are we helplessly programmed to do that in the first place? Like I've said, there are things that suck whether you're idealistic or not. Ironically perhaps you are the most idealistic person in this thread for believing what you believe: that if we could just accept the world for what it is without our ideas of what should be, we wouldn't have a problem. IT IS NOT POSSIBLE TO HAVE NO EXPECTATIONS. You've effectively created the biggest mega-expectation of all in believing that it is.

  4. #34
    Parody Parrot meowington's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2008
    MBTI
    INFJ
    Enneagram
    6
    Posts
    1,181

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    Godwin's Law!
    Haha ! Love this and oh so true. Got me.

    "but Godwin's law does not claim to articulate a fallacy". The argument still stands. People can and in many cases will cause direct suffering to others. Nothing any perspective will change about that.

    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    I don't disagree with this, except to the extent you differentiate expectations from perspective.
    Depending on your viewpoint or definition, perspective might encompass one's expectations. I agree on that.

    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    Waitaminute ... you're responding to my statements about choosing perspectives about people, but now your "misery barometer" is calibrated to materialistic concerns? You manage to use a straw man argument without ever crafting the straw man first, but rather imply the straw man's existence.
    My misery barometer is not at all calibrated to materialistic concerns only. I'm aware that materialistic concerns don't have to determin ones happiness but you can't deny that a certain degree of materialistic attainments plays it part in everyones life.
    I really don't see the straw man argument. You literally said : you live in the place you create. And I'm basically saying that some, if not, a lot of people are born utterly chanceless (to acquire happiness or to create anything positive out of it).

    But anyway...this is coming down to some very raw fundamentals of this reality. At least that's how I, as a realist, see it.
    To end on a slightly more positive note : For a lot of us here you do make a valid point about perspective. It just doesn't go for everyone or in any given situation.

  5. #35
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    MBTI
    INTJ
    Enneagram
    953 sp/so
    Posts
    5,708

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by miauwington View Post
    But anyway...this is coming down to some very raw fundamentals of this reality. At least that's how I, as a realist, see it.
    To end on a slightly more positive note : For a lot of us here you do make a valid point about perspective. It just doesn't go for everyone or in any given situation.
    I can agree with this.

    But face it, if you're on the internet posting on typology forums, which version of suffering would you expect a poster to be feeling: the full misery of human existence, or angsty misanthropy?
    An argument is two people sharing their ignorance.

    A discussion is two people sharing their understanding, even when they disagree.

  6. #36
    Parody Parrot meowington's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2008
    MBTI
    INFJ
    Enneagram
    6
    Posts
    1,181

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    I can agree with this.

    But face it, if you're on the internet posting on typology forums, which version of suffering would you expect a poster to be feeling: the full misery of human existence, or angsty misanthropy?
    Angsty misanthropy. Point taken

  7. #37
    WhoCares
    Guest

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    This may be the issue, then. I know it sounds like, "heads I win, tails you lose", but too much extroversion will ensure that an INTJ is annoyed by almost everyone. Lack of time for introversion is much like lack of sleep. I'd assumed excessive introversion because that is by far more common than excessive extroversion for INTJs: my bad.
    To be honest you seem to assume a lot based in a handful of posts on the internet. I get the impression I could have written anything and you'd still come up with the same response, I'm just doing it all wrong. Clearly we dont share the same point of view, thats fine. I happen to believe that there can be more than one point of view on humanity thanks for sharing yours.

  8. #38
    WhoCares
    Guest

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    I can agree with this.

    But face it, if you're on the internet posting on typology forums, which version of suffering would you expect a poster to be feeling: the full misery of human existence, or angsty misanthropy?
    So I cannot possibly be experiencing the full misery of human existence by virtue of the fact I post on a typology forum. Big call. Is this a belittlement you would also extend to people on forums like homeless.org or is it a special distinction for typology forums only?

    For whats it worth @Infinite Bubble has gotten to the point you are trying to make without also needing to make an alternate point of view wrong. In doing so he\she has opened the door to possibilities.

  9. #39
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    MBTI
    INTP
    Posts
    113

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by WhoCares View Post
    Just lately I have been forced to revise my thoughts on people. Despite my negative rantings I still believed in the inherent worthiness of people. I wanted to believe that humans are just fallible and its insecurity that causes people to behave as they do. But I simply cannot adhere to that notion any longer. It's become apparent to me just what a dark and hideous world we live in. That inherent worthiness outlook has been replaced by an outlook of inherent evil. And I never believed in the notion of evil before. But lets define it as....the propensity towards exploitation for self centred ends. As this is what I truly believe now drives humanity at large.

    Since humanity is driven to a selfish end and will actively exploit other species, same species and indeed any advantage they think they can, then what is worthy about humanity at all?
    Since this is the society we must all survive it explains why some people just end up as roadkill along the way.
    There is no way of predicting whether or not you will be roadkill as it's highly likely that you can always meet someone smarter, more exploitive and dangerous than you.

    Even people I would once have thought pretty normal have shown me recently that they are of highly questionable character. It seems normalcy is just a mask worn by an enormously narcissistic and psychopathic species and it doesn't take much to remove the mask. It's as simple as allowing someone to feel comfortable in a situation and they instantly and proudly expose just how degenerate they really are. I won't go into details because honestly the details make me sick.

    So given that I live in this place, surrounded by the most dangerous species on the planet (by order of unpredictability and tendency towards violence) what is the difference between this and the mythical hell?
    These opinions are very subjective, and don't reflect the way the world really is. But that's morality for you.

  10. #40
    Senior Member Alea_iacta_est's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Socionics
    ILI
    Posts
    1,838

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Orange Fusion View Post
    These opinions are very subjective, and don't reflect the way the world really is. But that's morality for you.
    All philosophy and especially this thread = subjective

Similar Threads

  1. Light barrier broken? Is this possible?
    By Athenian200 in forum Science, Technology, and Future Tech
    Replies: 21
    Last Post: 07-07-2009, 10:27 AM
  2. Why is this so funny?
    By proteanmix in forum The Bonfire
    Replies: 13
    Last Post: 10-25-2007, 11:16 AM
  3. Is this where I go to get fluffed?
    By Oberon in forum The Fluff Zone
    Replies: 8
    Last Post: 09-06-2007, 09:37 AM
  4. Replies: 36
    Last Post: 08-05-2007, 03:42 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO