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Thread: Is this hell?

  1. #11
    royal member Rasofy's Avatar
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  2. #12
    WALMART
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    So much beauty, gotta be good lookin'.

  3. #13
    Wake, See, Sing, Dance Cellmold's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zago View Post
    Scarcity on this planet makes us the monsters we are. We are literally forced to sell each other out to thrive here. We'll let people starve to death if they don't have money to pay us for food. In the end, we haven't much of a choice. The sickest twist of all is the fact that we can see it for what it is, but are helpless (at this point) to beat our merciless DNA. I aptly heard academia described as "urbane savagery" yesterday. We can talk all we want, but in the end we are utterly helpless to change our self serving programming.

    The truth about nature's been known for some 150 years now. It hasn't got any compassion in it--not a shred. We aren't the heroes we think we are. We are ALL psychopaths merely doing whatever best propagates our genetic makeup. When it comes down to push and shove, that's always shown to be the case. There is no selfless act, and all our talk of love, honor, friendship, morality.... is a facade we will readily override if a worthy enough opportunity presents itself. The only reason NOT to believe that is the lies people tell; the stories they make up about their noble reasons for doing things that they themselves are convinced of.

    Yeah, it's hell alright. Let your guard down, get burned. It's as simple as a math equation. Never for a single second believe anyone is being sincere. They never are. They may have even fooled themselves. And the more heartless you are, the more you can deceive, the better off you'll be. But who can live with that? It renders life completely meaningless, except as a cruel, suffering filled game of survival in which you ultimately always whither and die anyway.

    Love, in its forms romantic and platonic, would more aptly be called dependency. In this world of scarcity there is only hate. Our feelings are natures twisted means of manipulating us. To directly state one's needs and demands in a world of intelligence would be too obvious and crude, so we pretend it's love and trick our way to what we want. If you believe otherwise, you simply haven't been crushed enough yet.

    Maybe some say science has ruined the beauty in life by pulling back the curtain, but I think the ugliness was always there on display, if you're unfortunate enough to have the time to look for it. The notion that we aren't animals is a silly one. These words we say weave us into a dream where life isn't what it is.. where it's actually fair, and kind. But oh, the future is bright. Soon we'll have the technology not to have to toil. Soon we'll have the technology to hook wires into our brains and electrostimulate ourselves to the most profound, undying bliss imaginable. Not exactly romantic, but I guess we won't particularly care. When life shows you what it really is, self-annihilation finally does seem the only appealing option.

    I just resent the whole thing, personally. I would rather not exist. I would rather nothing exist. Now that's what I'd call peacefulness. But there's no getting out of existence. Nonexistence can't be experienced, and if I sprang into existence once, it will happen again. And again. Forever. There is only consciousness. Yes, this is hell.
    Truth hurts brah.

    You were unlucky in natures lottery and got given a brain of truth. Maybe another time round you will be given a brain of delusion....that's where humans are most happy.

    That's why I enjoy imagination. But bringing imagination into reality, that's hard. It's not easy to surpass a dream. Isn't it funny how we create words and concepts that actually have no example in our reality.

    Sincerity was a good example. Although once a person has looked into the abyss of apparent truth....it's hard to go on and try to fill up that nothing with something.

    'Our feelings are natures means of manipulating us' I like that, it's a good point. Then again it's just perspective gibberish...just noise....the more optimistic and delusional would say that perhaps they are natures gifts.

    But in all the shouty-killy-rapey-selfish-bastardising-trivialised-aggrandised-fuckupery of everything is it not possible to see the grey contradiction in our position? Following the selfish means through to the more selfless ones. In other words fulfilling both the selfish desire to continue while at the same time fulfilling the selfless aim to let others continue.

    Even if our immediate surroundings do not show us any evidence for it.

    See? Delusion. And yet....I'm not quite ready to give in. Perhaps I am too stupid to.

    Oh..laughter is good too, the existence we create and are created by is surely a great joke. Although I think it's admirable that you care so deeply.
    'One of (Lucas) Cranach's masterpieces, discussed by (Joseph) Koerner, is in it's self-referentiality the perfect expression of left-hemisphere emptiness and a precursor of post-modernism. There is no longer anything to point to beyond, nothing Other, so it points pointlessly to itself.' - Iain McGilChrist

    Suppose a tree fell down, Pooh, when we were underneath it?"
    "Suppose it didn't," said Pooh, after careful thought.
    Piglet was comforted by this.
    - A.A. Milne.

  4. #14
    WhoCares
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    @Rasofy, so reams of polyester going into landfill and the destruction of our bodies through the consumption of sugar and caffiene are reasons to celebrate....kay.

  5. #15
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WhoCares View Post
    Just lately I have been forced to revise my thoughts on people. Despite my negative rantings I still believed in the inherent worthiness of people. I wanted to believe that humans are just fallible and its insecurity that causes people to behave as they do. But I simply cannot adhere to that notion any longer. It's become apparent to me just what a dark and hideous world we live in. That inherent worthiness outlook has been replaced by an outlook of inherent evil. And I never believed in the notion of evil before. But lets define it as....the propensity towards exploitation for self centred ends. As this is what I truly believe now drives humanity at large.
    I believe that one's opinion of humanity in general derives from the kind(s) of humans one associates with. I've been in situations where nearly everyone I knew was a complete jerk. (Well, they couldn't help it: they were 8th graders!) I've been in situations where everyone was wonderful. Usually it's a bit of a mix. It's a mix that is mostly under your control. When I interview for jobs, I'm reading my interviewers as much as they're reading me. I've pre-emptively told potential employers (before hearing about acceptance or rejection) that I wouldn't be following up with them, just because the attitude(s) of the interviewers told me it wouldn't be a good place to work. I have accepted jobs with lower pay that have a good work environment.

    INTJs tend to develop monolithic views of the state of mankind, usually negative. We see how everything works, we see how people prey on each other. Morally, emotionally, INTJs tend to see things in terms of black and white. In contrast, INxPs see not merely all the shades of grey, but all the colors, all the tones, all the smells.

    Look for what people are, what each person is. If everything is black, or everything is white, then you are essentially morally blind. You currently appear to be unable to discern.

    Since humanity is driven to a selfish end and will actively exploit other species, same species and indeed any advantage they think they can, then what is worthy about humanity at all?
    You classify humans without knowing them. How can you find anything worthy without looking?

    Since this is the society we must all survive it explains why some people just end up as roadkill along the way.
    There is no way of predicting whether or not you will be roadkill as it's highly likely that you can always meet someone smarter, more exploitive and dangerous than you.
    If you learn to discern, then you can see such people coming a mile away. My Mom (INFJ) could do this really well. She told my Dad (INTP) that a particular business partner would be a really bad idea: she didn't like him at all. My Dad disregarded her comment as emotional/irrational. The partner eventually ended up suing my Dad.

    Of course people are selfish. Some of that "selfishness" is necessarily good: how can a parent take care of children if the parent doesn't take care of him/herself. Thus it matters more to know how a person is selfish.

    Even people I would once have thought pretty normal have shown me recently that they are of highly questionable character. It seems normalcy is just a mask worn by an enormously narcissistic and psychopathic species and it doesn't take much to remove the mask. It's as simple as allowing someone to feel comfortable in a situation and they instantly and proudly expose just how degenerate they really are. I won't go into details because honestly the details make me sick.
    Yes, you happen to know someone whom you find to be especially awful. I may be going out on a limb, here, but considering that you're an INTJ, you have, what, a sample size of one? Maybe 5 tops?

    So given that I live in this place, surrounded by the most dangerous species on the planet (by order of unpredictability and tendency towards violence) what is the difference between this and the mythical hell?
    You live in the place you create. We create our own hells by choosing perspectives/lifestyles that guarantee our personal misery. You aren't feeling miserable because of other people. You are feeling miserable because you have chosen this perspective on people.

    Since this is a typology forum, I'll stick in a bit of typology for you. Google "Ni Fi loop". INTJs can get into mental states where Fi feeds into Ni which feeds into Fi, and so on. The problem is that in these cases, there is no grounding in reality (Te, Se). Small pieces of evidence (no one is totally introverted) lead to vast generalizations. Confirmation bias then describes all of reality in very simplistic terms. "This is hell," is only one of many possible conclusions when one finds oneself in this state.

    The solution for these kinds of introverted loops is to find extroverted things to do, things that let you erase the doodles on the etch-a-sketch of your mind. If you keep doodling without erasing once in a while, the entire screen goes black.


    Quote Originally Posted by zago View Post
    Scarcity on this planet makes us the monsters we are.
    Then how would you explain the world of plenty that we have created? Perhaps you believe it was stolen from those who have nothing. But humanity started out with nothing, and built something. Lots of somethings. Many of the problems humanity has these days are due to having so much, not so little.

    Love, in its forms romantic and platonic, would more aptly be called dependency. In this world of scarcity there is only hate. Our feelings are natures twisted means of manipulating us. To directly state one's needs and demands in a world of intelligence would be too obvious and crude, so we pretend it's love and trick our way to what we want. If you believe otherwise, you simply haven't been crushed enough yet.
    In other words,



    More seriously, if the world operated as you describe, we'd have nothing resembling civilization.
    An argument is two people sharing their ignorance.

    A discussion is two people sharing their understanding, even when they disagree.

  6. #16
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Nasty poo-flinging primates on a savage planet. You make what good you can and you treasure the beauty when you find it. Laugh as much as humanly possible and don't watch the news.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  7. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by WhoCares View Post
    Just lately I have been forced to revise my thoughts on people. Despite my negative rantings I still believed in the inherent worthiness of people. I wanted to believe that humans are just fallible and its insecurity that causes people to behave as they do. But I simply cannot adhere to that notion any longer. It's become apparent to me just what a dark and hideous world we live in. That inherent worthiness outlook has been replaced by an outlook of inherent evil. And I never believed in the notion of evil before. But lets define it as....the propensity towards exploitation for self centred ends. As this is what I truly believe now drives humanity at large.

    Since humanity is driven to a selfish end and will actively exploit other species, same species and indeed any advantage they think they can, then what is worthy about humanity at all?
    Since this is the society we must all survive it explains why some people just end up as roadkill along the way.
    There is no way of predicting whether or not you will be roadkill as it's highly likely that you can always meet someone smarter, more exploitive and dangerous than you.

    Even people I would once have thought pretty normal have shown me recently that they are of highly questionable character. It seems normalcy is just a mask worn by an enormously narcissistic and psychopathic species and it doesn't take much to remove the mask. It's as simple as allowing someone to feel comfortable in a situation and they instantly and proudly expose just how degenerate they really are. I won't go into details because honestly the details make me sick.

    So given that I live in this place, surrounded by the most dangerous species on the planet (by order of unpredictability and tendency towards violence) what is the difference between this and the mythical hell?
    I've been beaten, bullied, mocked, and slandered to hell and back and through the tears and years, I've found the earth and mankind still has its charm. I'm not intimidated by demons and their parlor tricks. God is my rock, in whom I find protection. He is my shield, and the power that goes before me. There is no greater refuge, strength, joy, love, or peace...

  8. #18
    Senior Member Alea_iacta_est's Avatar
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    Calling life heaven or hell is merely a subjective point of view that can change rapidly. They are both sides of a coin, but what people forget is that even though they lie at opposing sides, they are still part of the same coin. Just got dumped by your special other? Flip the coin. Just bought a new car and got a very nice deal on it? Flip the coin. Once you see both sides of the coin do you realize how utterly tragic and glorious our existence really is.

  9. #19
    WhoCares
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    I believe that one's opinion of humanity in general derives from the kind(s) of humans one associates with.

    Yes, you happen to know someone whom you find to be especially awful. I may be going out on a limb, here, but considering that you're an INTJ, you have, what, a sample size of one? Maybe 5 tops?

    The solution for these kinds of introverted loops is to find extroverted things to do, things that let you erase the doodles on the etch-a-sketch of your mind. If you keep doodling without erasing once in a while, the entire screen goes black.
    How ironic that you are making the gross generalisations that you now accuse me of. For the record I work an extraverted job. I spend up to 12hrs per day, 18-24 days of every month immersed in society. I meet on average 400-600 new people every single day and spend on average 1hr+ (as a group) in their company. Far more time exposed to humanity than most people. And far more exposure to a broad range of people than most as well. My coworker pool numbers approx 3,000 and I work with the same people less than 5 times per year. So once again a very high level of exposure to a vast array of diversity. My daily coworker set is chosen by the company I work for, I have no say in it at all. Our workforce is comprised of approx 25% introverts, 75% extraverts with a 50/50 split between thinkers and feelers and judgers and perceivers. Dont know what the sensing and intuitive weighting is though.

    There are on average 6 days of the month where I get to be a recluse.

    If engaging in extraverted activites is a cure for an Ni-Fi loop then I consider myself well and truly cured. My view of humanity comes from long term exposure to a broader range of people in a few years than most people would come across in a decade. I've calculated that my exposure to mainstream society numbers conservatively over 100,000. Given the number of years I have worked it and averaging exposure to 400 people per day. But lets whittle that down further and talk about meaningful exposure, as in having the time to individually spend time with that person, get to know them on some level and observe their behaviour over several hours. If we just look at my coworkers only then my data set is still 3,000 with exposure to each one at least twice. And I took the job for exactly that reason. I consider my data set to be well and truly sufficient. I also consider my data set to be a good cross section of society as (excepting my coworkers) it is not a function of people with similar interests in life.

    Yeah, a tad more than the '5 tops' you are assuming.

    The fact you dont agree with my view of humanity doesn't make me a broken individual. It makes me someone who has gone out, been exposed a large cross-section and then come to a conclusion which is entirely my own. Not asking you to subscribe To my thoughts but likewise not asking for a psychological assessment of my perceived normalcy based on posts in a forum either.

  10. #20
    Senior Member zago's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    You live in the place you create. We create our own hells by choosing perspectives/lifestyles that guarantee our personal misery. You aren't feeling miserable because of other people. You are feeling miserable because you have chosen this perspective on people.
    This is victim blaming. The obvious counter is ... so why would people create horrible things to happen to them? State of mind matters a little, sure. It's important to keep the best attitude possible. Possible. People have limits, though. Would you tell a rape victim to shush and stop feeling miserable because it is her fault for creating that perspective of misery? Sorry, I know it would be nice to just choose how you feel, but that's not how shit works. What you've given us is a convenient way for the fortunate to lazily write off the pain that others truly feel.

    Then how would you explain the world of plenty that we have created? Perhaps you believe it was stolen from those who have nothing. But humanity started out with nothing, and built something. Lots of somethings. Many of the problems humanity has these days are due to having so much, not so little.
    I acknowledge that we are rich beyond measure compared to the past, and it is absolutely not something I take for granted. I can easily explain it, too. The market works toward technological progress. If 2 parties can engage in a win-win interaction, the world benefits, and that has happened many times. This doesn't mean that people won't always try to get away with whatever they can, especially when the rules aren't so clear cut.

    That said, for whatever great wealth we have gained, life is still quite brutal. There is still a lot of pain, people are still born with or acquire awful conditions, and there is still the terrible problem of the emotional pain we must afflict on each other to live practical lives. Hearts are broken every day, and that could easily be worse than most physical pain. Children are abused. People are bullied and excluded. Group dynamics hoist some people to the top and some people get to be trampled on.

    More seriously, if the world operated as you describe, we'd have nothing resembling civilization.
    Look around you and take inventory. What we call civilization is far from utopia; there is still a massive degree of brutal realism. The rules of evolution and nature still dominate.

    It is what it is. I am not trying to look at it positively or negatively. Last night I wrote a long-winded post about my sense of wonder about the world. Sometimes things are good. However, ugliness is not simply a matter of changing it by trying to frame it in a positive light. Ugliness just IS. That's the bitter pill of life, because we all know damn well how things should be. Life should be good. We should all be happy. Things should be fair. Why wouldn't they be? Who, having not even asked to be born, deserves to suffer?

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