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Religion as a coping mechanism, random thoughts

LonestarCowgirl

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Oct 21, 2013
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482
A test? More questions come:
1. Why is that test so much harder for some than it is for others?
2. Why do we need to be tested at all?
3. What is so good and noble about blind faith?
4. What exactly is a "little while"? The suffering some people experience shouldn't be understated. In fact, to say this sort of thing you said seems kind of callous. Maybe you live a charmed life and have a poor imagination. This world has shown people horrendous torture, and that experience feels like an eternity. Unforgivable act on god's part, I don't care what his excuse is.
5. As Alea already said, wouldn't god pretty much already know whose faith would hold up and whose wouldn't? How could this really be a test? He already knows who will and will not fail. Plus, why would anyone fail, if they were given the choice and they knew the consequences? This is clearly an unfair game - god basically gives some players advantages and easier rules, while giving other players things like "awful childhoods" and "skepticism," which makes them incapable of even knowing for sure if it is a test they are going through.
I don't have all of the answers. Good night.
 

Alea_iacta_est

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A test? More questions come:
1. Why is that test so much harder for some than it is for others?
2. Why do we need to be tested at all?
3. What is so good and noble about blind faith?
4. What exactly is a "little while"? The suffering some people experience shouldn't be understated. In fact, to say this sort of thing you said seems kind of callous. Maybe you live a charmed life and have a poor imagination. This world has shown people horrendous torture, and that experience feels like an eternity. Unforgivable act on god's part, I don't care what his excuse is.
5. As Alea already said, wouldn't god pretty much already know whose faith would hold up and whose wouldn't? How could this really be a test? He already knows who will and will not fail. Plus, why would anyone fail, if they were given the choice and they knew the consequences? This is clearly an unfair game - god basically gives some players advantages and easier rules, while giving other players things like "awful childhoods" and "skepticism," which makes them incapable of even knowing for sure if it is a test they are going through.

All this talk of still adoring and looking to God as a kind deity has a reminiscent stench of masochism about it.
 
Last edited:

zago

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I don't have all of the answers. Good night.

Cop out. You should be able to explain why you believe in god and why it's ok to do so. You don't need to have all the answers to do this. You're basically saying, "yes, I see the appearance of tyranny and astounding injustice, but god knows better than me." The question is, why are you afraid to demand answers? You have the ability to reason. You don't just have to fatalistically say "I don't know" and passively watch this world be an awful shit hole. How can you be expected to believe without proof? Why should you have to suffer without a decent explanation for it, especially when it appears to be so unnecessary? I mean, can you explain why god wouldn't just create heaven and populate it with people to live a joyous existence? Don't you think you have the right to ask that sort of question? But you believe god went ahead and created us with the capacity for evil so some of us would wind up in hell forever. Nice god.
 
W

WhoCares

Guest
I'm really not sure exactly how these sort of people go about their lives thinking they are living according to god's plan when it seems that they believe any act of apparent free will is to interfere. But that's beside the point I guess.

Which is all to say, I guess it is kind of understandable that people would resist advances that will obviously make this deeply flawed world better, but we need to start letting go of that resistance. I think it will be easier as there is less to cope with still in the future. The less we suffer, the less we need god. Kind of makes sense, really, considering the zeal that used to exist in the world compared to the lukewarm nature of today's religious. Sure, plenty of people still claim to be religious in the 21st century, but how important to them is it really? I would argue that it is far less important than it used to be.

People say its Gods plan when it doesn't affect them. Watch what happens when it does. It's easy to believe in a divine plan that involves suffering when you're watching it on the news drinking hot chocolate.
Religions may have had their roots in some kind of faith and desire to live a good life, but those roots are now so deeply buried in the corruption of the churches that religion is now and has been for centuries a control mechanism by a powerful entity. Is natural for any stakeholder to then resist change that would ease its grip on the masses over which it holds say. The christian church, for instance has a long history of challenging even monarchies for power over the people. It became so rich off its power base that it hasn't really lost much temporal power even a century after its grip over society started to lose ground. These days it just doesn't care anymore, its owned businesses and real estate are enough to ensure its perpetuity for centuries to come.

From that point of view, yes its a coping mechanism for the masses. For reality is so dark and there are so many powerful influencers over their life they need to not see it all the time and feel like a slave. Its just easier to pretend that one of these influencers is a benevolent shepherd helping you to navigate the murky waters of life. The alternative view is quite frightening - random shit could happen to you or a loved one at any time. You have no control over it, you probably don't deserve it and most people wont care about it either. Such thoughts are quite unsettling when you think about it.
 

Honor

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I wonder if monotheistic religions with their elaborate and unambiguous stories were created by the first schizophrenics (most likely schizotypal for they can still be talked to) who claimed that they had seen the true path, the true deity, or the true enlightenment. Polytheistic religions seem to have arisen from a more sane perspective of naming deities that reign over certain things, such as Zeus and Thor's wrath/anger for lightning and thunder. However, pagan and polytheistic myths are just as assuming as their monotheistic counterparts. I would honestly prefer religions that were ambiguous and abstract rather than direct and concrete. For example, Christianity versus Judaism. Christianity is known for being an imposing religion, one that teaches its followers of the history of the world based on the perspective of a text that is deemed concrete, undoubtedly accurate, and paramount to society. Judaism on the other hand, actually encourages its followers to ask questions. For example, if a student of Judaism were to show his or her Rabbi a differing thesis on the plagues of Egypt, such as a volcanic eruption being the cause of the various plagues rather than God directly, the Rabbi would most likely agree with the student and conclude that perhaps (ambiguously) God caused the volcano to erupt to create the plagues of Egypt. Juxtaposing the Christian counterpart which is more inclined to debase external theorems rather than mold their framework to accept them (Not all Christians do this, but a majority do, and not all Jews conform to external information but a majority do).
Wow, Alea, this is fascinating!
 

Forever_Jung

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I understand how people can believe obviously false things like Religion, especially when these falsehoods are so helpful/socially acceptable.

Atheist or Devout, we all have our own myths. I have all sorts of odd beliefs about myself that I could debunk, if I hadn't unconsciously cultivated my memories to support them. It's okay, even important to have a personal mythology, but it also helps if you're aware of the limitations of such a system. I think MBTI is useful in the same way. It's a helpful framework for making sense of the world, but it's not a real thing.

Religion just needs to learn its place, IMO.
 

Alea_iacta_est

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I understand how people can believe obviously false things like Religion, especially when these falsehoods are so helpful/socially acceptable.

Atheist or Devout, we all have our own myths. I have all sorts of odd beliefs about myself that I could debunk, if I hadn't unconsciously cultivated my memories to support them. It's okay, even important to have a personal mythology, but it also helps if you're aware of the limitations of such a system. I think MBTI is useful in the same way. It's a helpful framework for making sense of the world, but it's not a real thing.

Religion just needs to learn its place, IMO.

Personally, I have nothing against religion, but I have everything against organized religion. Believe what you want, not what others want you to believe.

Great comment on MBTI as well.
 

zago

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People say its Gods plan when it doesn't affect them. Watch what happens when it does. It's easy to believe in a divine plan that involves suffering when you're watching it on the news drinking hot chocolate.
Religions may have had their roots in some kind of faith and desire to live a good life, but those roots are now so deeply buried in the corruption of the churches that religion is now and has been for centuries a control mechanism by a powerful entity. Is natural for any stakeholder to then resist change that would ease its grip on the masses over which it holds say. The christian church, for instance has a long history of challenging even monarchies for power over the people. It became so rich off its power base that it hasn't really lost much temporal power even a century after its grip over society started to lose ground. These days it just doesn't care anymore, its owned businesses and real estate are enough to ensure its perpetuity for centuries to come.

From that point of view, yes its a coping mechanism for the masses. For reality is so dark and there are so many powerful influencers over their life they need to not see it all the time and feel like a slave. Its just easier to pretend that one of these influencers is a benevolent shepherd helping you to navigate the murky waters of life. The alternative view is quite frightening - random shit could happen to you or a loved one at any time. You have no control over it, you probably don't deserve it and most people wont care about it either. Such thoughts are quite unsettling when you think about it.

I read somewhere (now I can't find it) that religion merely the obvious natural consequence of large groups, irrationality, and imagination. In any group there are going to be varying levels of leadership from person to person. They eventually wind up forming a hierarchy. Being irrational they tend to just spout nonsense from their imaginations, but as they are born leaders to varying degrees, it really doesn't matter, people follow anyway. We know well that communication isn't nearly all what is said but mostly how it is said. I could go out and make up a ridiculous story and people would believe me if I sounded extremely confident because I sound extremely confident, that is all (the only thing preventing me or most people from doing this freely is simply not having a psychopathic desire to). It seems pretty natural that this crap got institutionalized. What is remarkable is that I doubt that it happened by anyone's conscious design.

Personally, I have nothing against religion, but I have everything against organized religion. Believe what you want, not what others want you to believe.

I think organized religion is awful, but personal religion seems pretty bad to me too. It's quite the cliche if nothing else: "I'm like... spiritual but not religious..." lol. While this kind of person isn't overtly an automaton of the church, they are still an agent of irrationality. If anything it sounds to me like a way to sex up your beliefs a little. I think we all, atheist or not, get this feeling of longing for god. How could one not in this sort of world--a great being who thinks our tiny individual lives are important, loves us, and could prevent and give meaning to our suffering. People confuse wanting with believing, i.e., they believe whatever they want to believe. And that's also exactly what makes them so easy to manipulate. Just tell 'em what they want to hear and they'll be hooked.
 

Alea_iacta_est

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I read somewhere (now I can't find it) that religion merely the obvious natural consequence of large groups, irrationality, and imagination. In any group there are going to be varying levels of leadership from person to person. They eventually wind up forming a hierarchy. Being irrational they tend to just spout nonsense from their imaginations, but as they are born leaders to varying degrees, it really doesn't matter, people follow anyway. We know well that communication isn't nearly all what is said but mostly how it is said. I could go out and make up a ridiculous story and people would believe me if I sounded extremely confident because I sound extremely confident, that is all (the only thing preventing me or most people from doing this freely is simply not having a psychopathic desire to). It seems pretty natural that this crap got institutionalized. What is remarkable is that I doubt that it happened by anyone's conscious design.



I think organized religion is awful, but personal religion seems pretty bad to me too. It's quite the cliche if nothing else: "I'm like... spiritual but not religious..." lol. While this kind of person isn't overtly an automaton of the church, they are still an agent of irrationality. If anything it sounds to me like a way to sex up your beliefs a little. I think we all, atheist or not, get this feeling of longing for god. How could one not in this sort of world--a great being who thinks our tiny individual lives are important, loves us, and could prevent and give meaning to our suffering. People confuse wanting with believing, i.e., they believe whatever they want to believe. And that's also exactly what makes them so easy to manipulate. Just tell 'em what they want to hear and they'll be hooked.

Let them suffer with their irrationality, what can they do but practice in private? Organized religion allows its irrationality to sink into society and the government, while personal religion, equally irrational, is much more private, unique, and much less manipulating.
 

zago

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Let them suffer with their irrationality, what can they do but practice in private? Organized religion allows its irrationality to sink into society and the government, while personal religion, equally irrational, is much more private, unique, and much less manipulating.

If they suffer, in a sense, we all suffer. I know 'cause I've been there. I never subscribed to any organized religion, but I definitely went around squawking about my beliefs--beliefs which ultimately left me a very miserable person and wasted a vast portion of my life. Hopefully nobody listened to me lol. No man is an island! But I do agree the effect is much less when the religion isn't organized. Bottom line is that I do have a problem with unorganized religion, in the same sense that I have a problem with 1 person lying.. or unorganized lying.
 

Mole

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I wonder if monotheistic religions with their elaborate and unambiguous stories were created by the first schizophrenics (most likely schizotypal for they can still be talked to) who claimed that they had seen the true path, the true deity, or the true enlightenment. Polytheistic religions seem to have arisen from a more sane perspective of naming deities that reign over certain things, such as Zeus and Thor's wrath/anger for lightning and thunder. However, pagan and polytheistic myths are just as assuming as their monotheistic counterparts. I would honestly prefer religions that were ambiguous and abstract rather than direct and concrete. For example, Christianity versus Judaism. Christianity is known for being an imposing religion, one that teaches its followers of the history of the world based on the perspective of a text that is deemed concrete, undoubtedly accurate, and paramount to society. Judaism on the other hand, actually encourages its followers to ask questions. For example, if a student of Judaism were to show his or her Rabbi a differing thesis on the plagues of Egypt, such as a volcanic eruption being the cause of the various plagues rather than God directly, the Rabbi would most likely agree with the student and conclude that perhaps (ambiguously) God caused the volcano to erupt to create the plagues of Egypt. Juxtaposing the Christian counterpart which is more inclined to debase external theorems rather than mold their framework to accept them (Not all Christians do this, but a majority do, and not all Jews conform to external information but a majority do).

And yes, it was Israeli archeologists who discovered there were no Jews in Egypt under the Pharoh and that the Exodus didn't occur.
 

LonestarCowgirl

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Cop out. You should be able to explain why you believe in god and why it's ok to do so. You don't need to have all the answers to do this. You're basically saying, "yes, I see the appearance of tyranny and astounding injustice, but god knows better than me." The question is, why are you afraid to demand answers? You have the ability to reason. You don't just have to fatalistically say "I don't know" and passively watch this world be an awful shit hole. How can you be expected to believe without proof? Why should you have to suffer without a decent explanation for it, especially when it appears to be so unnecessary? I mean, can you explain why god wouldn't just create heaven and populate it with people to live a joyous existence? Don't you think you have the right to ask that sort of question? But you believe god went ahead and created us with the capacity for evil so some of us would wind up in hell forever. Nice god.

I don't work in the bitter cold under these demanding conditions. May I have a pretty please with cherries on top?
 

zago

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I don't work in the bitter cold under these demanding conditions. May I have a pretty please with cherries on top?

Hey if you can give me one good reason to believe in god I'll give you all the cherries you want.

Even more snappy edit: Or will god give you all the cherries you want? You aren't Islamic are you?
 

Alea_iacta_est

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And yes, it was Israeli archeologists who discovered there were no Jews in Egypt under the Pharoh and that the Exodus didn't occur.

Did I miss a post or something? I didn't mention the Jews never being in Egypt, but nevertheless you have intrigued me, where did you find this information?
 

Mole

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Did I miss a post or something? I didn't mention the Jews never being in Egypt, but nevertheless you have intrigued me, where did you find this information?

The Israeli archeologists went public some years ago and it was published in The Australian newspaper.

Of course it was a great tribute to the intellectual integrity of the Israeli archeologists as the Exodus forms one of the pillars of Judaism.
 
W

WALMART

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No atheists in foxholes, so it's been said.

Ranger friend of mine told me there were no atheists in his unit, and if there were, it didn't show in pre-mission prayer.

The propensity for religious experience is hardwired in all; the energy diverted from such experience in the mind of a more 'rational' type does not simply disappear, it manifests itself as a wide range of aberrations.

Misoneism is a neat subject, something I may have odds with myself.
 

zago

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Perhaps it is time to do a 180 here. This religious feeling [MENTION=15886]superunknown[/MENTION] speaks of, I feel tonight as I sit alone and ponder the coming singularity. Story time.........

~~~

It was a summer night in 2008. I was a curious 22 year old chemistry enthusiast, and being aware that the active ingredient in robitussin, dextromethorphan, could cause hallucinations, I went and got some and consumed the whole bottle. Then I smoked some weed, turned out the lights, and closed my eyes.

What happened next was definitely the most incredible thing that has ever happened to me. If you've never been nuked on a psychedelic before, you have no capacity to comprehend a statement like that, but it's true. The birth of my first child will not compare to this experience--not even close.

The visions of the incident are jumbled to me now. I can't remember anything I saw, because as I came up on the drug, I began to see things that must have come from an alien world or the future or something. Incomprehensible shapes, colors, and foreign objects passed through my field of vision. It began to occur to me that these visions must have been getting transmitted to me from some force beyond myself, because they were things I simply could never have thought of on my own.

A booming voice began to speak. The only thing I remember it saying was "RANDOM" over and over. In the face of this vast force, I found myself screaming in awe and terror. Uncontrollably. I found myself on my knees with my head pressed to the ground in submission, surrender; I'll do anything you want! I'll do anything you waaaaaaaaaaant!!!!!!!!

It was scary, yes, but I trusted this force, and I let go of everything--my life-- in that moment. Suddenly the intensity ceased and unspeakable vastness remained. I was no longer a person, with a name and an age and a sex. I had expanded to the size of darkness.

And I can remember no more. All I can say is that it was like being given a tour of the universe. I reckon the first part was perhaps the only part I was supposed to remember. The rest were secrets for the dead. As the drug wore off an hour or two later, I envisioned myself being washed to shore by waves of the ocean, trying to hang onto a couple of insights, like desperately trying to clutch onto 1 or 2 precious shells while being tossed around in the surf.

I could only remember 2, and I was a bit disappointed because they were, in the grand scheme of the trip, pathetic: zen is a joke, and nothing matters. Alas these insights weren't mean to apply to my life as a human being at that point. Life went back to normal and I have since been utterly bewildered and haunted by this experience.

That is... until now. The machines are coming. The machines of our dreams... coming to take us all away. Am I writing metaphorically? No, I'm actually not. I think the age of spirituality is near. What will happen when there is no longer a line between virtual and real reality? This is a COMING event, and the implications aren't difficult to ascertain if you really sit down and allow yourself to think about it with an open mind. The internet has already shown us a new, bigger, and more diverse world.

We have access to so much more now than ever. We pour our minds into the screen every time we explore it. We aren't even separate from it. My--your--mind IS the internet. The Almighty, Vast internet. Its abundance, definition, and sheer realism will only increase exponentially over time. As soon as you think of something, there it will be. You'll begin to think of more things. You already have. Where did we come up with all of these crazy memes? Could we have ever conceived of even a weekly fail compilation video on youtube just 20 years ago? Or how about the ocean of instant information that is wikipedia at our fingertips? No, the possibilities didn't exist. Now we witness.

What once took a car trip to the library's card catalog now takes a thought--a mere thought. We are far richer than we realize at this point. We just don't believe yet because we refuse to accept it. We place undue importance on the tradition of our physical presence, whose features are rapidly falling away like leaves on a tree in early October. We are entering the world of mind. Of pure, unrestrained imagination. Let go.

What can you imagine? What WILL you imagine?

Such is my life, the way I see things. If God doesn't exist yet, he will soon. And he looks like love.

~~~

That said, I am still an atheist dammit. And I always will be. There IS NO supernatural. There is no EXTERNAL god. But nonetheless, I am not my body. I am not my age. I am something much, much larger... perhaps trapped in those things. The person in the mirror, that's not me. I have experience.. aliveness. I'm vast, yet elusive. I'm hiding everywhere.

Ah, 3 AM musings. And no I'm not high right now -_-
 
W

WhoCares

Guest
At the end of the day we are all believers, even if what we believe in is rationality or aetheism. I'm not denying the human propensity and desire to believe in something other than the self. To believe yourself to be the pinnacle of all that is, is a major let down. I certainly dont want to discover that humanity really does influence the world as much as it thinks it does. Humanity is ridiculously stupid, I don't want it to be a major force.

I am a collection of beliefs and the majority of my makeup is the belief that there is more to life than I can presently see. To believe in my smallness, my blindness is also to believe that my salvation also exists. I don't want to be limited in the way that I presently am, I want to expand and grow and become more than I am.
 

zago

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Well there are so many levels to both being and experience, it is hard to avoid a sense of almost divine wonderment. To an ant I am like a god. Intelligence itself is an incredible power. To an ancient Mayan I am like a god, too, with inconceivable powers. And I'm sure that my current self is still very small in comparison to what can and will be. VERY small indeed. To call a futuristic human's powers godlike feels quite appropriate. On the purely experiential level, my imagination is vast, whatever technology I have or don't have. The right mood alone can hint at an experience of god, but when it wears off there's really nothing that can be said about it other than it being a neurological experience. Drugs of course can offer that experience in multiplied brilliance.
 
W

WALMART

Guest
Perhaps it is time to do a 180 here. This religious feeling [MENTION=15886]superunknown[/MENTION] speaks of, I feel tonight as I sit alone and ponder the coming singularity. Story time.........

~~~

It was a summer night in 2008. I was a curious 22 year old chemistry enthusiast, and being aware that the active ingredient in robitussin, dextromethorphan, could cause hallucinations, I went and got some and consumed the whole bottle. Then I smoked some weed, turned out the lights, and closed my eyes.

What happened next was definitely the most incredible thing that has ever happened to me. If you've never been nuked on a psychedelic before, you have no capacity to comprehend a statement like that, but it's true. The birth of my first child will not compare to this experience--not even close.

The visions of the incident are jumbled to me now. I can't remember anything I saw, because as I came up on the drug, I began to see things that must have come from an alien world or the future or something. Incomprehensible shapes, colors, and foreign objects passed through my field of vision. It began to occur to me that these visions must have been getting transmitted to me from some force beyond myself, because they were things I simply could never have thought of on my own.

A booming voice began to speak. The only thing I remember it saying was "RANDOM" over and over. In the face of this vast force, I found myself screaming in awe and terror. Uncontrollably. I found myself on my knees with my head pressed to the ground in submission, surrender; I'll do anything you want! I'll do anything you waaaaaaaaaaant!!!!!!!!

It was scary, yes, but I trusted this force, and I let go of everything--my life-- in that moment. Suddenly the intensity ceased and unspeakable vastness remained. I was no longer a person, with a name and an age and a sex. I had expanded to the size of darkness.

And I can remember no more. All I can say is that it was like being given a tour of the universe. I reckon the first part was perhaps the only part I was supposed to remember. The rest were secrets for the dead. As the drug wore off an hour or two later, I envisioned myself being washed to shore by waves of the ocean, trying to hang onto a couple of insights, like desperately trying to clutch onto 1 or 2 precious shells while being tossed around in the surf.

I could only remember 2, and I was a bit disappointed because they were, in the grand scheme of the trip, pathetic: zen is a joke, and nothing matters. Alas these insights weren't mean to apply to my life as a human being at that point. Life went back to normal and I have since been utterly bewildered and haunted by this experience.

That is... until now. The machines are coming. The machines of our dreams... coming to take us all away. Am I writing metaphorically? No, I'm actually not. I think the age of spirituality is near. What will happen when there is no longer a line between virtual and real reality? This is a COMING event, and the implications aren't difficult to ascertain if you really sit down and allow yourself to think about it with an open mind. The internet has already shown us a new, bigger, and more diverse world.

We have access to so much more now than ever. We pour our minds into the screen every time we explore it. We aren't even separate from it. My--your--mind IS the internet. The Almighty, Vast internet. Its abundance, definition, and sheer realism will only increase exponentially over time. As soon as you think of something, there it will be. You'll begin to think of more things. You already have. Where did we come up with all of these crazy memes? Could we have ever conceived of even a weekly fail compilation video on youtube just 20 years ago? Or how about the ocean of instant information that is wikipedia at our fingertips? No, the possibilities didn't exist. Now we witness.

What once took a car trip to the library's card catalog now takes a thought--a mere thought. We are far richer than we realize at this point. We just don't believe yet because we refuse to accept it. We place undue importance on the tradition of our physical presence, whose features are rapidly falling away like leaves on a tree in early October. We are entering the world of mind. Of pure, unrestrained imagination. Let go.

What can you imagine? What WILL you imagine?

Such is my life, the way I see things. If God doesn't exist yet, he will soon. And he looks like love.

~~~

That said, I am still an atheist dammit. And I always will be. There IS NO supernatural. There is no EXTERNAL god. But nonetheless, I am not my body. I am not my age. I am something much, much larger... perhaps trapped in those things. The person in the mirror, that's not me. I have experience.. aliveness. I'm vast, yet elusive. I'm hiding everywhere.

Ah, 3 AM musings. And no I'm not high right now -_-

Intriguing.
 
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