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  1. #11
    Senior Member Alea_iacta_est's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mole View Post
    As I move further away from my religion, I can see it takes us over.

    And it takes us over by entrancing us.

    Much of religious practice is trance induction that has been honed over the centuries.

    Many of us have been entranced by religion as small children.

    And many of us want to continue to be entranced as adults.

    There are substantial social and personal benefits to being entranced, but there is also a price to pay.

    And for many of us the benefits are worth the price.
    And the people who have deemed the benefits more rewarding continued, continue, and will continue the cycle of indoctrination.

  2. #12
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    The problem with religion is not whether there are supernatual beings but in the way religion is inculcated.

    For most in the world religion is inculcated in small children.

    Why small children? Because small children are most susceptible to entrancement.

    Yes, evangelisation is a form of trance induction.

    The forms of evangelisation are highly sophisticated and deeply cultural.

    Entrancement works very well because it bypasses the critical mind and we will believe and feel whatever is suggested in the trance.

  3. #13
    Senior Member Alea_iacta_est's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mole View Post
    The problem with religion is not whether there are supernatual beings but in the way religion is inculcated.

    For most in the world religion is inculcated in small children.

    Why small children? Because small children are most susceptible to entrancement.

    Yes, evangelisation is a form of trance induction.

    The forms of evangelisation are highly sophisticated and deeply cultural.

    Entrancement works very well because it bypasses the critical mind and we will believe and feel whatever is suggested in the trance.
    It's precisely the same indoctrination as the conditioning found in Brave New World.

  4. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by zago View Post
    This just raises more questions. God works through us to help others?
    Yes

    Then why doesn't he just help them himself?
    He does that too.

    Why did he make them need help in the first place? Why do some people get to be cool doctors and chemists and some people have to be sick and poor? And why do some people choose to hurt instead of help? Are they evil? Did they choose to be evil? Why would they do that? Why would god let them do that?
    Broadly speaking, free will. I wish I had all of the answers.

  5. #15
    Senior Member Alea_iacta_est's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skinny-Love View Post
    Yes


    He does that too.


    Broadly speaking, free will. I wish I had all of the answers.
    If God were omniscient as is said of him, he would be able to compensate for free will and give skills and abilities to those who would actually do altruistic deeds without altering the person's free will, would he not?

  6. #16
    Senior Member zago's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skinny-Love View Post
    He does that too.
    How, and how do you know? Why don't I know? I have certainly tried.

    Broadly speaking, free will. I wish I had all of the answers.
    Ah, free will. So it is the sick and poor who are at fault for their own misfortunes. If they just CHOSE to, they could be the cool doctors and chemists.

  7. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by zago View Post
    How, and how do you know? Why don't I know? I have certainly tried.

    Ah, free will. So it is the sick and poor who are at fault for their own misfortunes. If they just CHOSE to, they could be the cool doctors and chemists.
    Quote Originally Posted by Alea_iacta_est View Post
    If God were omniscient as is said of him, he would be able to compensate for free will and give skills and abilities to those who would actually do altruistic deeds without altering the person's free will, would he not?
    He does. He blesses both believers and unbelievers here on earth. Life is an ongoing growth in the talents God gives us. Not everybody chooses to cultivate them for His glory. Nonetheless...

    "...He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous." Matthew 5:45

    I look at our brief life on earth like a test...

    "... though now for a little while you may have had to suffer grief in all kinds of trials. These have come so that your faith—of greater worth than gold, which perishes even though refined by fire—may be proved genuine and may result in praise, glory and honor when Jesus Christ is revealed." 1 Peter 1:6:-7

    ----
    May He give you the desires of your heart and make all your plans succeed. Psalm 20:4

  8. #18
    Senior Member Alea_iacta_est's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skinny-Love View Post
    He does. He blesses both believers and unbelievers here on earth. Life is an ongoing growth in the talents God gives us. Not everybody chooses to cultivate them for His glory. Nonetheless...

    "...He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous." Matthew 5:45

    I look at our brief life on earth like a test...

    "... though now for a little while you may have had to suffer grief in all kinds of trials. These have come so that your faith—of greater worth than gold, which perishes even though refined by fire—may be proved genuine and may result in praise, glory and honor when Jesus Christ is revealed." 1 Peter 1:6:-7

    ----
    May He give you the desire of your heart and make all your plans succeed. Psalm 20:4
    I think you misunderstood my point, if God is omniscient, he would be able to predict if someone is going to use God's gifts for good or evil (or use or no use), so why wouldn't he give the gifts to people he knew would use them? He would be able to predict which people would cultivate the skills given to them.

  9. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alea_iacta_est View Post
    I think you misunderstood my point, if God is omniscient, he would be able to predict if someone is going to use God's gifts for good or evil (or use or no use), so why wouldn't he give the gifts to people he knew would use them? He would be able to predict which people would cultivate the skills given to them.
    I already answered those questions with scripture reference... silly goose. No rework!

  10. #20
    Senior Member zago's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skinny-Love View Post
    He does. He blesses both believers and unbelievers here on earth. Life is an ongoing growth in the talents God gives us. Not everybody chooses to cultivate them for His glory. Nonetheless...

    "...He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous." Matthew 5:45

    I look at our brief life on earth like a test...

    "... though now for a little while you may have had to suffer grief in all kinds of trials. These have come so that your faith—of greater worth than gold, which perishes even though refined by fire—may be proved genuine and may result in praise, glory and honor when Jesus Christ is revealed." 1 Peter 1:6:-7

    ----
    May God give you the desires of your heart and make all your plans succeed. Psalm 20:4
    A test? More questions come:
    1. Why is that test so much harder for some than it is for others?
    2. Why do we need to be tested at all?
    3. What is so good and noble about blind faith?
    4. What exactly is a "little while"? The suffering some people experience shouldn't be understated. In fact, to say this sort of thing you said seems kind of callous. Maybe you live a charmed life and have a poor imagination. This world has shown people horrendous torture, and that experience feels like an eternity. Unforgivable act on god's part, I don't care what his excuse is.
    5. As Alea already said, wouldn't god pretty much already know whose faith would hold up and whose wouldn't? How could this really be a test? He already knows who will and will not fail. Plus, why would anyone fail, if they were given the choice and they knew the consequences? This is clearly an unfair game - god basically gives some players advantages and easier rules, while giving other players things like "awful childhoods" and "skepticism," which makes them incapable of even knowing for sure if it is a test they are going through.

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