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  1. #1
    Senior Member Alea_iacta_est's Avatar
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    Default The Hub - an Agnostic/Atheistic Standpoint on Reincarnation

    So, I've been introspecting about this for several years now, and I thought that I might be able to share my insights here.

    This concept will be hard to grasp for those that look at it from the standpoint of any form of religion; to fully understand this concept, one must view the universe from the non-theist standpoint, as a chaotic, yet mathematically organized, computer (in a metaphorical rather than literal sense).

    To begin, I'm going to ask you what you recall before you were born. The obvious answer to this question is that you recall absolutely nothing, which actually provides more insight than one might think. Before we were born, we, the consciousness that occupies our vessel, simply weren't there. We didn't exist before we were born, but then we existed, a testament to a very antiquated paradox. How does something come from nothing? Something isn't made of nothing, because it would still be nothing, so how is this possible? The very fact that you are sitting here reading this very post definitely states that your consciousness, indeed, came from nothing and then became something, so what else has come from nothing? One may conclude that all of existence has simply arisen out of this abyss we call "nonexistence". Well, as it so happens, nonexistence doesn't exist, nor does it not exist, and the very fact that we are here illustrates this concept. If we exist, then that means that things that aren't here now have the possibility to exist (as evidence to the fact that we had the possibility to exist and then we existed). But, nothing can't have potential, for if nothing has potential, it adopts a property of something; therefore, anything that has potential exists, and anything that doesn't have potential or properties doesn't exist. But, as we just mentioned, we came out of nonexistence; we had potential, so anything else that could possibly exist must indeed exist along with us. If nothing has the possibility to exist, then nothing, quite paradoxically, isn't nothing. This means that nonexistence must not be nonexistence, for everything in nonexistence has the potential to exist.

    Now for the crazy part:
    Using this knowledge that nonexistence is impossible, we can confront the common atheistic viewpoint concerning what happens after death. Most atheists tend to believe that when we die, we fall into the oblivion that constitutes nonexistence, i.e. when we die, we no longer exist, and we cease to be, and that's the end of that. But, as we've learned, nonexistence is impossible, so how can one rejoin the nonexistence from whence it didn't come? That's simple, one doesn't. But what happens to us then? The only possible explanation for what happens actually lies from how we began to exist in the first place, when we die, we become nonexistent, and then instantaneously existent, for nonexistence is utterly unstable because it simply can't be. When we become instantaneously existent, we are recycled to a new vessel, as proven by the fact that our consciousness came from "nothing". But if our consciousness ceased to be, then how are we recycled? The only possible explanation is that consciousness isn't the property of the individual, but the property of the entire collective. Anything that experiences is conscious; therefore, it possesses the consciousness. When a vessel is damaged to the point where consciousness has no possible route to experience any longer, it simply takes root into a different vessel, one that is being born. But, if this is true, then how come some babies aren't born without consciousness? Now we begin to trail down the path of the singularity. The instantaneous transition that transports us from vessel to vessel is free of certain laws of existence, because technically, during that precise, infinitesimally small amount of time, we aren't apart of existence anymore, and what important concept is a property of existence? Time. Therefore, when we enter nonexistence, we no longer abide by the same rules of existence, including time. When we transition from vessel to vessel, we could be placed in a vessel 3 trillion years from now or even 13.7 billion years ago. That means, when we die, our consciousness possesses another, randomly chosen vessel, which then goes on to live a life, die, and in turn be re-purposed into a different vessel (or perhaps even the same vessel over again a few times), a process that continues indefinitely until every life-form has been lived an infinite amount of times.

    With these inferences, we can make several conclusions: One, that every act of kindness or belligerence we ultimately do to ourselves, for we are doomed to live the receiver of said kindness or belligerence eventually. Two, that consciousness is one unified being, that lives every life individually and anachronistically. and Three, that life and death are ultimately a cycle or beginning, ending, and beginning once more.

    I would love to hear your interpretations on my insane ramblings that I have posted on this thread, so please tell me anything you notice or any logical inconsistency or fallacy in my writing.

  2. #2
    ndovjtjcaqidthi
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    Me and @superunknown were talking about this last night. You're doing it right, Alea.

  3. #3
    Senior Member SensEye's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alea_iacta_est View Post
    I would love to hear your interpretations on my insane ramblings that I have posted on this thread, so please tell me anything you notice or any logical inconsistency or fallacy in my writing.
    You've made the mistake of thinking of conciousness as a special independent entity. It's not. It's a byproduct of your brain activity. It's no different than body heat in this regard.

    So it doesn't come from nothing. It's a matter to energy conversion. Deprive your brain of the raw materials it needs to operate (calories and oxygen) and your conciousness will disappear fast enough.

  4. #4
    Senior Member Alea_iacta_est's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SensEye View Post
    You've made the mistake of thinking of conciousness as a special independent entity. It's not. It's a byproduct of your brain activity. It's no different than body heat in this regard.

    So it doesn't come from nothing. It's a matter to energy conversion. Deprive your brain of the raw materials it needs to operate (calories and oxygen) and your conciousness will disappear fast enough.
    I probably should have utilized the computer metaphor to illustrate what I meant. I know that consciousness is the byproduct of brain activity, but in the same sense, consciousness is also a definitive part of our brain, like memory is to a computer. The data from a computer's memory is never truly deleted, it is emptied of its contents and recycled. Therefore, it could be shown that consciousness acts in the same manner, but once it is deleted from the brain, it is released, for it cannot be re-purposed inside something that does not function, and it is never destroyed because of the law of conservation of energy.

    You are right on all points, but I think you misinterpreted the whole "Consciousness comes from nothing" part, the point of the first portion of my post explains why non-existence can't be, so consciousness couldn't have come from nothing because nothing doesn't exist. Consciousness does come from something.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alea_iacta_est View Post
    I probably should have utilized the computer metaphor to illustrate what I meant. I know that consciousness is the byproduct of brain activity, but in the same sense, consciousness is also a definitive part of our brain, like memory is to a computer. The data from a computer's memory is never truly deleted, it is emptied of its contents and recycled. Therefore, it could be shown that consciousness acts in the same manner, but once it is deleted from the brain, it is released, for it cannot be re-purposed inside something that does not function, and it is never destroyed because of the law of conservation of energy.

    You are right on all points, but I think you misinterpreted the whole "Consciousness comes from nothing" part, the point of the first portion of my post explains why non-existence can't be, so consciousness couldn't have come from nothing because nothing doesn't exist. Consciousness does come from something.
    Memory is substance and form. When the cache is empties, it only loses form. Substance awaits.

    Upon death, both substance and form are absolved from the mind.

    I think you are still hanging on to the core problem SensEye identified; I identified it in your first post as well, and still do.

  6. #6
    Senior Member Alea_iacta_est's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by superunknown View Post
    Memory is substance and form. When the cache is empties, it only loses form. Substance awaits.

    Upon death, both substance and form are absolved from the mind.

    I think you are still hanging on to the core problem SensEye identified; I identified it in your first post as well, and still do.
    You both have said that the mind simply leaves the body and disappears, but where does it go from there? It simply can't disappear from existence.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alea_iacta_est View Post
    You both have said that the mind simply leaves the body and disappears, but where does it go from there? It simply can't disappear from existence.
    Mind is everything

    All we are is what we have thought

    etc

  8. #8
    Senior Member Alea_iacta_est's Avatar
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    Are you guys under the impression that I am saying that consciousness is detached from the human form? As if it is compiled somewhere and that it siphons off to each individual? My actual statement is that consciousness can only be in one place at a time, but because it can maneuver around the existential concept of time after death due to the paradox created that was mentioned in my post, it can occupy several bodies at once in the past, present, and future. I'm saying that consciousness is one being that occupies one vessel at a time, then moves on to a different vessel after that one has become dysfunctional, but since it can move throughout time and occupy any vessel, we have circumstances where the consciousness occupies several vessels at once, such as the 7 billion people living today.

  9. #9
    Senior Member Alea_iacta_est's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by superunknown View Post
    Mind is everything

    All we are is what we have thought

    etc
    This sounds very akin to an enlightenment era philosophy, that the external world is just a manifestation and simulation to keep the mind (which doesn't have a physical form but simply wanders around aimlessly in the blackness of nothing) entertained throughout its infinite existence.

  10. #10
    Senior Member tinker683's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alea_iacta_est View Post
    Are you guys under the impression that I am saying that consciousness is detached from the human form? As if it is compiled somewhere and that it siphons off to each individual? My actual statement is that consciousness can only be in one place at a time, but because it can maneuver around the existential concept of time after death due to the paradox created that was mentioned in my post, it can occupy several bodies at once in the past, present, and future. I'm saying that consciousness is one being that occupies one vessel at a time, then moves on to a different vessel after that one has become dysfunctional, but since it can move throughout time and occupy any vessel, we have circumstances where the consciousness occupies several vessels at once, such as the 7 billion people living today.
    An interesting hypothesis...but it doesn't seem to have any substance. Just assumptions and/or naked assertions. How do you know all of this? What do you make the basis of these claims?
    "The man who is swimming against the stream knows the strength of it."
    ‚Äē Woodrow Wilson

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