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  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alea_iacta_est View Post
    This sounds very akin to an enlightenment era philosophy, that the external world is just a manifestation and simulation to keep the mind (which doesn't have a physical form but simply wanders around aimlessly in the blackness of nothing) entertained throughout its infinite existence.
    *everything is mind

    Pardon. Works both ways, really.

  2. #12
    Senior Member Alea_iacta_est's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tinker683 View Post
    An interesting hypothesis...but it doesn't seem to have any substance. Just assumptions and/or naked assertions. How do you know all of this? What do you make the basis of these claims?
    No one can truly know how it works, it is indeed merely speculation. I attempted to use logical analysis to pick apart nonexistence and existence and provide a scenario from which reincarnation can occur in a godless universe. It's philosophy after all, it isn't a scientific theory.

  3. #13
    Senior Member Alea_iacta_est's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by superunknown View Post
    *everything is mind

    Pardon. Works both ways, really.
    It's an interesting concept.

  4. #14
    Senior Member tinker683's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alea_iacta_est View Post
    No one can truly know how it works, it is indeed merely speculation. I attempted to use logical analysis to pick apart nonexistence and existence and provide a scenario from which reincarnation can occur in a godless universe. It's philosophy after all, it isn't a scientific theory.
    Fair enough.

    It's an interesting idea...but the premises seems to rest on an idea that I just can't agree with.

    We didn't exist before we were born, but then we existed, a testament to a very antiquated paradox. How does something come from nothing? Something isn't made of nothing, because it would still be nothing, so how is this possible?
    Others in this thread have pointed out that you seem to be treating consciousness as if it's something that is independent of the body. I know you've stated already that you aren't but you really are. You can't say that consciousness is NOT independent of the body and then in the same breath imply that conscious somehow has the ability or mechanism to jump from body to body. The two are mutually exclusive. Consciousness is either the byproduct of the chemicals in your body or it's something that is independent of the brain.

    I can't really respond to the rest of your post because it rest on what I feel is this very faulty assumption. If I were to assume your premise correct, THEN it (might) make some sense.

    Good thought though!
    "The man who is swimming against the stream knows the strength of it."
    ― Woodrow Wilson

  5. #15
    Senior Member Alea_iacta_est's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tinker683 View Post
    Fair enough.

    It's an interesting idea...but the premises seems to rest on an idea that I just can't agree with.



    Others in this thread have pointed out that you seem to be treating consciousness as if it's something that is independent of the body. I know you've stated already that you aren't but you really are. You can't say that consciousness is NOT independent of the body and then in the same breath imply that conscious somehow has the ability or mechanism to jump from body to body. The two are mutually exclusive. Consciousness is either the byproduct of the chemicals in your body or it's something that is independent of the brain.

    I can't really respond to the rest of your post because it rest on what I feel is this very faulty assumption. If I were to assume your premise correct, THEN it (might) make some sense.

    Good thought though!
    Thank you.

    The reason why I am forced to go with that particular idea for consciousness is that when someone dies in a godless universe, they would be theoretically cast into nonexistence, which as evidenced by my speculation, doesn't exist (how ironic). So how can something that is no longer functioning such as thought exist but not exist at the same time? The only explanations would either be that perhaps the consciousness unique to a body jumps backwards in time and relives the same life with the same body perpetually, or that the consciousness is transported to a different body. For personal preference, I picked the latter of the two (living the same life over and over again seems so dull).

    Again, this is all speculation.

  6. #16
    Senior Member tinker683's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alea_iacta_est View Post
    Thank you.

    The reason why I am forced to go with that particular idea for consciousness is that when someone dies in a godless universe, they would be theoretically cast into nonexistence, which as evidenced by my speculation, doesn't exist (how ironic). So how can something that is no longer functioning such as thought exist but not exist at the same time? The only explanations would either be that perhaps the consciousness unique to a body jumps backwards in time and relives the same life with the same body perpetually, or that the consciousness is transported to a different body. For personal preference, I picked the latter of the two (living the same life over and over again seems so dull).

    Again, this is all speculation.
    That's...because...it doesn't?

    You seem to be under the impression that when something ceases to exist...it continues to exist in some form. It doesn't, it's gone. I mean, some of the byproduct of it's physical body might be found in the ground it was buried in or the urn it's ashes were placed in or whatever...but to my thought we have no scientific reason to believe that thoughts continue to occur in a dead brain.

    The only way I know that a person continues to "exist" after they've died is in the memories and experiences of those they've encountered but then they don't literally "exist" so much as they're memories at that point.
    "The man who is swimming against the stream knows the strength of it."
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  7. #17
    Senior Member Alea_iacta_est's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tinker683 View Post
    That's...because...it doesn't?

    You seem to be under the impression that when something ceases to exist...it continues to exist in some form. It doesn't, it's gone. I mean, some of the byproduct of it's physical body might be found in the ground it was buried in or the urn it's ashes were placed in or whatever...but to my thought we have no scientific reason to believe that thoughts continue to occur in a dead brain.

    The only way I know that a person continues to "exist" after they've died is in the memories and experiences of those they've encountered but then they don't literally "exist" so much as they're memories at that point.
    That defeats the entire point of half of my post, nonexistence isn't because existence is. It is impossible for something not to exist, even if it isn't here right now. The human consciousness simply can't be nonexistent because nonexistent is nonexistent. There is no oblivion, no abyss, and no end based on this concept. Therefore, when something such as consciousness or even computer data is erased, they are somehow recycled, they do not cease to be, they do not become nonexistent, they are re-purposed. The whole point of being able to explain this reincarnation was based on this very principle that I've hypothesized/speculated, without that concept, it is as you stated, the mind simply ceases to be. Essentially, this model doesn't prove that reincarnation happens, it is how reincarnation might be able to happen.

  8. #18
    deplorable basketcase Tellenbach's Avatar
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    I'd recommend reading Carol Bowman's "Return from Heaven". There are a handful of cases where a reincarnated soul returns to the same family. These are anecdotal accounts, but the children in the book would know names of people, locations, and have knowledge of details of their previous life. In some instances, they'd have birthmarks at places where they suffered an injury. For instance, a child with a surgical incision in his neck in one life would have a birthmark in the same place.

    The author has a forum where people can submit their stories. You can read some of the accounts from actual parents of these kids.

    If you want a more scientific approach, try to find Ian Stevenson's 2 volume book: Reincarnation and Biology. It's a 2200 page text with photos of the scars and birthmarks of many subjects. I believe he's investigated over 1,000 reincarnation cases.
    Senator Rand Paul is alive because of modern medicine and because his attacker punches like a girl.

  9. #19
    Senior Member zago's Avatar
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    I have also come to the conclusion of the OP. Nonexistence is nonexistent. There is only life, there is only consciousness. From our experience anyway. Whether or not there is an external world, time is of no importance. I could cease to exist for a trillion trillion years. All that needs to happen is the same thing that already happened once - I come into being.

    Of course, I won't really be me. The only commonality will be consciousness itself.

    Then again, I don't believe I will die as zago. If the life expectancy didn't rise one iota in my lifetime, I would make it to around 2070. But it will rise by 2070. A lot--enough to outpace aging itself. Then again, will I have a physical body at all at that point? I'm more akin to believe my consciousness will have been uploaded to machines at that point. I'll be immortal in the sense that the Cylons of BSG were. And so will everyone.

    If that turns out not to be the case, I will have myself cryogenically frozen. Lots of people are doing that these days. It's not even that expensive. And that kind of takes us back to the original point of this thread, if you think about it. So confusing.

  10. #20
    Senior Member Alea_iacta_est's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zago View Post
    I have also come to the conclusion of the OP. Nonexistence is nonexistent. There is only life, there is only consciousness. From our experience anyway. Whether or not there is an external world, time is of no importance. I could cease to exist for a trillion trillion years. All that needs to happen is the same thing that already happened once - I come into being.

    Of course, I won't really be me. The only commonality will be consciousness itself.

    Then again, I don't believe I will die as zago. If the life expectancy didn't rise one iota in my lifetime, I would make it to around 2070. But it will rise by 2070. A lot--enough to outpace aging itself. Then again, will I have a physical body at all at that point? I'm more akin to believe my consciousness will have been uploaded to machines at that point. I'll be immortal in the sense that the Cylons of BSG were. And so will everyone.

    If that turns out not to be the case, I will have myself cryogenically frozen. Lots of people are doing that these days. It's not even that expensive. And that kind of takes us back to the original point of this thread, if you think about it. So confusing.
    Woe to the first poor soul who uploads his mind to a machine, for I'm certain accidents are bound to happen.
    It makes me wonder however, if the personality of a person is uploaded to a machine, and consciousness with it, how will consciousness recycle itself in this system? Perhaps uploading someone's mind would deplete consciousness of its vessel's customization, if you will, so that people could still be born and have consciousness. (This is extrapolated from my hypothesis of there being one consciousness living one life at a time then transposing to another body through which it lives another life parallel to the first life)

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