• You are currently viewing our forum as a guest, which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our free community, you will have access to additional post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), view blogs, respond to polls, upload content, and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free, so please join our community today! Just click here to register. You should turn your Ad Blocker off for this site or certain features may not work properly. If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us by clicking here.

Actionable Understanding

ygolo

My termites win
Joined
Aug 6, 2007
Messages
5,996
Do X, get result Y.

Amongst the class of trust worthy statements, understanding of this form, or models of the world readily translated to this form, are the only valuable forms of understanding.

What are your thoughts about my statement above?
 

Coriolis

Si vis pacem, para bellum
Staff member
Joined
Apr 18, 2010
Messages
27,193
MBTI Type
INTJ
Enneagram
5w6
Instinctual Variant
sp/sx
Do X, get result Y.

Understanding of this form, or models of the world readily translated to this form are the only valuable forms of understanding.

What are your thoughts about my statement above?
To me, this is too limited and . . . experiential, for lack of a better word. I want to know why X leads to Y. How repeatable is this connection? What are the mechanisms behind it? Without that, I don't feel I can rely on the connection, and I certainly can't extend it to those few cases when X results in something else, or something else results in Y. No, I want to see inside the black box.
 

ygolo

My termites win
Joined
Aug 6, 2007
Messages
5,996
To me, this is too limited and . . . experiential, for lack of a better word. I want to know why X leads to Y. How repeatable is this connection? What are the mechanisms behind it? Without that, I don't feel I can rely on the connection, and I certainly can't extend it to those few cases when X results in something else, or something else results in Y. No, I want to see inside the black box.

Interesting take. I agree with you, and see how I left out important context.

I believe what additional information you would want is a model of the world still readily translated to "do x get y".

Also, information about how reliable the understanding was something I took for granted.

I wanted to contrast this to knowledge of the form "X happened in year Y", or "X and Y have some correlation.". These statements may be actionable to those in a particular field, but are less likely to be so for people outside the field.

I am trying to formulate a statement that encapsulates what people consider actionable.

Beyond this, I wanted to see how different the value of knowledge and understanding is when it is actionable.

I am also playing with the what the difference is between knowledge and understanding.

However, I thought starting off that abstract would send us in circles. So I chose something simple and perhaps a bit provocative.

Any thoughts on the more broad (and vague) cluster of thoughts?
 

miss fortune

not to be trusted
Joined
Oct 4, 2007
Messages
20,589
Enneagram
827
Instinctual Variant
sp/so
can't be trusted... people always seem way too happy to draw a direct connection in the case of spurious correlations... connections where they shouldn't be :thelook:
 

ygolo

My termites win
Joined
Aug 6, 2007
Messages
5,996
can't be trusted... people always seem way too happy to draw a direct connection in the case of spurious correlations... connections where they shouldn't be :thelook:

I had taken the trustworthiness for granted. I suppose I should edit the first post.

For example, lift something light enough for you to pick up, and it will move upwards. Most corporeal things respond in predictable ways when corporeal actions are taken on them, at least initially.
 

miss fortune

not to be trusted
Joined
Oct 4, 2007
Messages
20,589
Enneagram
827
Instinctual Variant
sp/so
I had taken the trustworthiness for granted. I suppose I should edit the first post.

For example, lift something light enough for you to pick up, and it will move upwards. Most corporeal things respond in predictable ways when corporeal actions are taken on them, at least initially.

yes, yes... and fire will often burn you :tongue:

I'd say that those types of understandings... the basic understanding of natural laws (as opposed to, say, the understanding of the actual mechanisms of gravity or muscle movement) are just the base of what one should strive for understanding in the world... to stop there is to deny the brain and curiosity their full capabilities. Why bother having a brain if you're not going to use it to explore? :huh:

That basic X -> Y shit should be learned by the time you've learned that pissing your pants isn't a good plan in life... to spend the rest of your life in a state of mental stasis is death :shrug:
 

Coriolis

Si vis pacem, para bellum
Staff member
Joined
Apr 18, 2010
Messages
27,193
MBTI Type
INTJ
Enneagram
5w6
Instinctual Variant
sp/sx
Interesting take. I agree with you, and see how I left out important context.

I believe what additional information you would want is a model of the world still readily translated to "do x get y".

Also, information about how reliable the understanding was something I took for granted.

I wanted to contrast this to knowledge of the form "X happened in year Y", or "X and Y have some correlation.". These statements may be actionable to those in a particular field, but are less likely to be so for people outside the field.
Before I reply further, could you clarify just what you mean by "actionable"?
 

ygolo

My termites win
Joined
Aug 6, 2007
Messages
5,996
yes, yes... and fire will often burn you :tongue:

I'd say that those types of understandings... the basic understanding of natural laws (as opposed to, say, the understanding of the actual mechanisms of gravity or muscle movement) are just the base of what one should strive for understanding in the world... to stop there is to deny the brain and curiosity their full capabilities. Why bother having a brain if you're not going to use it to explore? :huh:

That basic X -> Y shit should be learned by the time you've learned that pissing your pants isn't a good plan in life... to spend the rest of your life in a state of mental stasis is death :shrug:

Well, consider that when you are in a plane, train, or automobile (even a building), it is based on this sort of understanding. For that matter, this conversation is also mainly made possible using that sort of understanding. I don't think civil or mechanical engineers require knowing particle physics or string theory to deign cars or bridges.

Besides that, I think those who understand particle physics would be able to readily make use of that knowledge in an "Do X, get Y" manner. I am starting to believe, unless you can do that, there is no actual understanding, just knowledge.

Before I reply further, could you clarify just what you mean by "actionable"?

Perhaps useful is a good synonym.

Actionable means you can act on the knowledge. One extreme example is standing right beyond the turning points of a pendulum and knowing that it is no going to hit you. More intricate examples are designing a circuit based on knowledge of circuit principles, or writing software based on the rules of the language you are programming in.

Well, the clearest "definition" I can think of at this moment is that the knowledge can easily translated to, "If you do X, you can reliably expect Y." The knowledge/understanding allows you to "push buttons" in the world and get the results you want.

I have to make up extreme examples because what is actionable will depend heavily on context.

As a counterexample, consider the knowledge statement "Springleboingers are not kludgy." Let's say this is somehow something you can no for certain. But, even if you knew it for certain, you cannot do anything with that knowledge.

For most people, outside of going on quiz shows and such, "trivia" is not very actionable. Bits of trivia would be knowledge, but not understanding.

Knowing how to get from point A to point B may not be very useful for someone who will never ever come close to either point A or point B. At best, it is a story that can be passed on to someone who can at a later time go from point A to B. If, however, you live close to both points A and B, then knowing how to go from A to B is very actionable.
 

Coriolis

Si vis pacem, para bellum
Staff member
Joined
Apr 18, 2010
Messages
27,193
MBTI Type
INTJ
Enneagram
5w6
Instinctual Variant
sp/sx
Well, the clearest "definition" I can think of at this moment is that the knowledge can easily translated to, "If you do X, you can reliably expect Y." The knowledge/understanding allows you to "push buttons" in the world and get the results you want.

Knowing how to get from point A to point B may not be very useful for someone who will never ever come close to either point A or point B. At best, it is a story that can be passed on to someone who can at a later time go from point A to B. If, however, you live close to both points A and B, then knowing how to go from A to B is very actionable.
Now we are getting somewhere. Say you are never going to be near A and B, but someone describes how to get from A to B. They describe it in such a way that, not only could you get from A to B if you were there, but you also understand the method they used to navigate from A to B. You understand the method well enough to generalize it, and use it to get from G to H, and P to Q, and all sorts of places you do want to go.

This is the kind of knowledge I value most and find most useful: knowledge of methods that can be broadly applied, rather than specific answers that are good only in that limited situation. Now, we can take it a step further and try to understand why the method works the way it does. If we understand that, we are in a better position to modify or extend the method if we get into a situation where it no longer works (e.g. trying to apply terrestrial navigation techniques in space).

As an example: a crystal grower I know was trying to improve the quality of a certain kind of crystal. Over a period of years, he determined experimentally the growth parameters that would yield the best quality material. Someone asked him at a meeting WHY those particular growth parameters produced the best result. He admitted he didn't know, but was just happy they worked, since he wanted to grow material good enough to sell. Now, to his credit he did collaborate with some university people who did some very specialized tests he had neither time nor facilities to do, to track down just what was going on in the crystals that was affected by the modified growth conditions. Is this useful? It might be if people, say, try to grow the material using a different method; or to use the same method to grow a different but similar material.
 

FDG

pathwise dependent
Joined
Aug 13, 2007
Messages
5,903
MBTI Type
ENTJ
Enneagram
7w8
I'd say you are leaving out any kind of action with a probabilistic outcome. Namely, what happens if my knowledge is that if I do X, the outcome will be Y in a% of the cases, and Z in 1-a% of the cases? Is this kind of knowledge worthless?
 
W

WhoCares

Guest
Do X, get result Y.

What are your thoughts about my statement above?

Not a fan. It implies that reality is fixed, rather than a product of present perceptions. Science, the great observor of reality, cannot definitively agree on reality because the more it learns through the current lens of perception the more anomalies it finds. Its not uncommon for science to come out and say....i know we said X but actually we can now prove thats not true. Reality, and therefore results, shift depending upon how it is viewed.
 

ygolo

My termites win
Joined
Aug 6, 2007
Messages
5,996
Well, I was about to abandon this as a half-baked thread idea, but I think we drown in a sea of so called "knowledge" these days and being able to filter the deluge would be a very useful thing.

My perspective matches that of [MENTION=9811]Coriolis[/MENTION] quite well...due perhaps, to similar backgrounds. But I did not want to parallel Popper's demarcation of science, but rather something more broad.

Big Data is soon going to pervade so many facets of our lives, and so much so that, I think, will give us a false sense of knowledge. I wanted to a say a little bit more than the aphorism so often repeated that it has become a meaningless platitude, "correlation does not imply causation".

-------------------------------------
Also, I think the usual notion of single causes leading to single effects is a woefully inadequate description of causation.

I think a fairly simple decoupling is to note that causal mechanisms are rules that govern time evolution, while the effects and events are simply what happen during the time evolution. In this way, causes and effects are categorically different things. I suppose one can still ask what "caused" the rules. But the rules are not things that need causes. So I think the problem of infinite regress of causes looses its gravity with this conception (even if in some technical sense it is still there).
------------------------------------

One of the predictions about the effects Big Data will have on society is that people have fewer second chances. That society will become more like Sparta, killing off diversity in the name of strength--A sort of Eugenics (but more broad, effecting more areas of our lives).

I was looking for a safeguard, and I thought "corporeal mechanism" was the most natural one. Being careful here to note that even though the mechanistic events all happen in the corporeal world, the "causes" are more abstract rules that we only approximately describe in our conceptions.
------------------------------------

Biochemistry puts back some of the complexity that genetics removes, as does pathology the complexity removed by epidemiology. When forced to tie our models to corporeal entities, we reintroduce some of the quirkiness, the chaos, and the complexity, that statistics tends to whitewash. `

In marketing, we have the mass market and the long tail. We may not understand what that long tail is. But we can no longer ignore it, since it is that tail that now wags the dog.

I see two belief systems that are going to collide in possibly violent opposition in our social context. One that aims for the simple, approximate, and efficient, the other that aims for the quirky, the accommodating, and diverse.
-------------------------------------

But we know that these systems need not come into violent conflict because they are in great harmony in the simpler aspects of our understanding--namely the understanding of the physical world of things. For me, this is a great sign of hope. That if we can reach this level of understanding, we do not need to chose between efficiency and diversity. We do not need to kill the week to be strong. The pareto principle does not have to be applied. Doors do not need to be slammed. Bridges need not be burnt. Earth need not be scorched.

As things get more complex, it is harder to reach that same balance between efficiency and diversity in our understanding. But, I believe the guiding light can come from finding things that are corporeal and concrete to think about.

I always found it interesting that for most things having to do with "reality" we usually associate with the "left brain" (analysis, collecting data, noting facts). The notable exception being the actual perception of reality, which we attribute to the "right brain". I still remember in art class the idea of perhaps looking at things upside down or at a different angle, so as to see what is actually there rather than our preconception of what is there.
-------------------------------------

I thought "Do X, get Y" was the simplest way to see (or perhaps more accurately feel) where the guiding light of corporeal reality is. Because until I have the impulse to do something, I can remain in blissful ignorance with impunity.

Perhaps there is a better approach to this conglomeration of ideas.

This was my attempt to revive the thread by providing the diversity of ideas that drove the question. Perhaps this post will land in the tl;dr category for many of you. But once again, efficiency vs. diversity.
 

Zangetshumody

Member
Joined
Nov 19, 2009
Messages
458
MBTI Type
INTJ
I don't know how relevant this might be to your topic;
But my meta-type system of 17 stages is all about giving (or attaching) a certain response (or form of response) regarding a certain mental faculty and achieving a result of a certain character.

The 17 stages can be roughly divided into a group of 8 and of 9, where the 8 are more earthly, and the above 9 are more ethereal (and heavenly). It bears mentioning that if you understand a cosmological order by my understanding;- "what things are", does not subsist in the world, however "what should be" does subsist in the world. In this way; generalizations and regularities can be enduring and unchanging (although I suspect we have not yet formulated them broadly enough in science to erect understandings that persevere at the same level as the axiomatic).

I will give the first 3 stages as examples of the input output correlations:

There is a lot of theological implication that one has to apply to these stages to offer full actualization of the higher stages... but hopefully these first 3 stages can be easy enough to view.
The reason there is so much writing, is because the prior stage must first be working properly before you can get a basic input->output of the stage you want fruitful operation from.

----------------------

A person whose type corresponds to stage 1: whose spirit of “what will be” wants to be the thing to receiveth “humility”, stage 17 must first be working properly:
Therefore let the spirit of {stage 17’s faculty} “how things are” be the thing that determines [your:] ‘glory’ in the way you live your life; so the spirit of “how things are” is no longer the thing that determines ‘fear’ in the way you live your life.
To clear your life from old judgments that accommodated your past style of spiritual misgiving: from now— always be cognizant to let the spirit of “how things would be” in others, be the thing that determines ‘understanding’ in the way others live their lives; so that any dislike of others being led by the spirit of “how things are”, as the thing that determines ‘glory’ in the way they live their life, is covered over and laid to rest. Therefore let the spirit of “what will be”, be the thing that determines [your:] ‘fear’ in the way you live your life.

A person whose type corresponds to stage 2: whose spirit of “how things would be” wants to be the thing to receiveth ‘aware of darkness’, stage 1 must first be working properly:
Therefore let the spirit of {stage 1’s faculty} “what will be” be the thing that determines [your:] ‘fear’ in the way you live your life; so the spirit of “what will be” is no longer the thing that determines ‘understanding’ in the way you live your life.
To clear your life from old judgments that accommodated your past style of spiritual misgiving: from now— always be cognizant to let the spirit of “who I am” in others, be the thing that determines ‘outside authority’ in the way others live their lives; so that any dislike of others being led by the spirit of “what will be”, as the thing that determines ‘fear’ in the way they live their life, is covered over and laid to rest. Therefore let the spirit of “how things would be”, be the thing that determines [your:] ‘understanding’ in the way you live your life.


A person whose type corresponds to stage 3: whose spirit of “who I am” wants to be the thing to receiveth ‘aware of multiplicity’, stage 2 must first be working properly:
Therefore let the spirit of {stage 2’s faculty} “how things would be” be the thing that determines [your:] ‘understanding’ in the way you live your life; so the spirit of “how things would be” is no longer the thing that determines ‘outside authority’ in the way you live your life.
To clear your life from old judgments that accommodated your past style of spiritual misgiving: from now— always be cognizant to let the spirit of “what should be” in others, be the thing that determines ‘generalization’ in the way others live their lives; so that any dislike of others being led by the spirit of “how things would be”, as the thing that determines ‘understanding’ in the way they live their life, is covered over and laid to rest. Therefore let the spirit of “who I am”, be the thing that determines [your:] ‘outside authority’ in the way you live your life.

(side note: "who" means "how you are known"- or the image of your being)
 
Top