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Atheists celebrating Christmas.

Totenkindly

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I know a lot of atheists- or people who do not believe in God- or the miracle birth of Jesus, who celebrate Christmas.

Trees, lights, presents- the whole nine yards.

This is strange to me.

What gives?

It's not that confusing. Christmas is such a blend of traditions and ideas that different people use the holiday to celebrate different things.

It's like trying to say that being Jewish is either being part of an ethnic group OR a faith. The reality is that people can be both, or one, or the other.
 

SensEye

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I'm wondering how an individual feels "okay" with this. If you are firm in your atheist beliefs, why not forgo any Christmas celebration? I can see going along with it for friends that are Christian. But putting up a tree, buying presents. I dunno. I've always been bewildered by people that celebrate to the hilt but do not respect the reason behind it.
You just aren't connecting the dots here. The Dec 25 holiday was based on a pagan festival, and so when Christianity became popular, it was good marketing on the Christians part to co-opt the celebration as "Jesus birthday".

If they had just picked some other date as a "holy day" based on when they though Jesus birthday really was, it may never have caught on. And the proof is in the pudding, some 2000 years later, look how many folks think Dec 25 is all about Jesus being born?

So it's just tradition on the part of Christians and non-believers alike. Everybody likes a good celebration.
 

JAVO

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God doesn't believe in atheists. Problem solved.

There's nothing to see here people. Move along to the next thread.
 

AzulEyes

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You just aren't connecting the dots here. The Dec 25 holiday was based on a pagan festival, and so when Christianity became popular, it was good marketing on the Christians part to co-opt the celebration as "Jesus birthday".

If they had just picked some other date as a "holy day" based on when they though Jesus birthday really was, it may never have caught on. And the proof is in the pudding, some 2000 years later, look how many folks think Dec 25 is all about Jesus being born?

So it's just tradition on the part of Christians and non-believers alike. Everybody likes a good celebration.

Sorry- I just don't buy that people of TODAY that are atheists celebrate Christmas because of these other non-Christian historical reasons.
I don't buy it.
You do it for the presents and the fun and the food.
:cakegirl:
 

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I thought the consensus among most historians is that there probably was a reform rabbi Jehoshua ben Joseph.:huh:

No there isn't.

And while you speak of Socrates, he's an historical figure because many people who knew him testified about his life. Not only Plato, but also Xenophon and Aristophane.
There are too much direct testimonies to deny his existence.

While for Jesus... we have absolutely NOTHING.

NOTHING AT ALL!!

Even Roman registers in Judea never mention he existed, or that somebody like him could have existed. Yet we have almost all the names of the criminals who have been crucified, under which pretense and offense, and when. Roman bureaucrats were very meticulous. But for Jesus or even a Yehoshua... nothing. No letters, no testimonies, no written documents... with the exception of crude fakes written centuries after his presumed death.
So the consensus amongst historians, as far as I heard the debate, was that Jesus was only a mythical figure, a collection of previous mythos. Hence Mithra. But of course, for true believers, it's blasphemy. Hence the precautions of many contemporary "agnostic" historians. But these precautions aren't scientific per se, it's just political correctness..
 

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Do you have any sources? I'm asking because I have read and heard (from historians) the opposite many times but have always been interested in this.

Classic dilemma.

Trying to prove that something doesn't exist is impossible. But we can be reasonable and infer the real possibility, just like in the celestial teapot's analogy.

The fact remains that we have absolutely NO CONTEMPORARY SOURCE about a person called Yehoshua or that could fit into the events described by the Bible during that time.
All the authentic documents referring to Jesus or to "Christos" were written decades or centuries after his presumed death.
 

SensEye

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Sorry- I just don't buy that people of TODAY that are atheists celebrate Christmas because of these other non-Christian historical reasons.
I don't buy it.
You do it for the presents and the fun and the food.
:cakegirl:
True. But we did it in the first place for the presents the fun and the food. It's just for a while we forgot that was the main reason (on account of most of our ancestors became Christians), and we thought is was a holy dudes birthday. So reverting back to the days when it was only about fun/presents/food is not inconsistent.

Likewise Christians, who may have started celebrating Christs birthday on Dec 25 (when it would seem that date is almost certainly incorrect) can carry on doing so, since they have been doing that for centuries (and since the exact date is unknown anyhow, might as well stick with tradition). It's about the fun/presents/food for Christians too. And they can celebrate their religion on top of that.

I actually used to really like Christmas services back in my psuedo-believer days. That whole fellowship vibe is a legitimate phenomena. Everybody is in such a good mood you can't help but feel the same way.
 

ThatsWhatHeSaid

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It's like trying to say that being Jewish is either being part of an ethnic group OR a faith. The reality is that people can be both, or one, or the other.

I keep telling people that it's an ethnic faith group! Jesus
 

Red Herring

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Classic dilemma.

Trying to prove that something doesn't exist is impossible. But we can be reasonable and infer the real possibility, just like in the celestial teapot's analogy.

The fact remains that we have absolutely NO CONTEMPORARY SOURCE about a person called Yehoshua or that could fit into the events described by the Bible during that time.
All the authentic documents referring to Jesus or to "Christos" were written decades or centuries after his presumed death.

Sorry, I wasn't clear. I didn't mean to ask you to prove the non-existence of something. I mean: Do you have any sources for your claim that your theory is the consensus among historians? Because I have always read that even though the first references are from 20 or so years after his death the absolute majority of historians assumes that there was a rabbi fitting that description (one of the many gurus of his time) being executed by the Romans.
 

Beorn

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Do you have any sources? I'm asking because I have read and heard (from historians) the opposite many times but have always been interested in this.

They said the same thing about Pontius Pilate (who should have had his name on many many more documents than Jesus) until the first archeological evidence was discovered 50 years ago.
 

Nicodemus

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Well, I never claimed he was. Don't forget that I too am an atheist. I was referring to the debate over whether or not that person ever lived ... just like some people claim Socrates never lived and was a literary invention by Plato.
My point is that that person cannot have lived, because he does not fit the definition. Jehoshua ben Joseph is as much Jesus as Thomas Mann is Gustav von Aschenbach.
 

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Sorry, I wasn't clear. I didn't mean to ask you to prove the non-existence of something. I mean: Do you have any sources for your claim that your theory is the consensus among historians? Because I have always read that even though the first references are from 20 or so years after his death the absolute majority of historians assumes that there was a rabbi fitting that description (one of the many gurus of his time) being executed by the Romans.

Well... As far as I've read, and when I followed some lectures about that period of time, I was told that the honest consensus is that Jesus never existed. But you can't say that too often in public, because once again, you have political correctness. Officially stating that is too awful for Christians, and Christian influence is still very strong amongst our countries. It's denying their religion in its very essence, and we don't want to humiliate our Christian friends, do we?
So when you check the cultural background of almost every "historian" who claims that Yehoshua was nonetheless an historical figure... you will find a Christian or a religious person.

It's exactly the same for historians who deny there could be any real resemblance between Christianity and early Mithran or Sol Invictus mythos. The mere idea that Christianity could have borrowed or aggregated foreign ideas and rituals anywhere else in order to create a synthetic central "Messiah" figure is too awful to endure in our modern times. So they will deny these facts with the last drop of their energy.

But Mithra was born from a virgin during the 25th of december, just like Sol Invictus. To recognize each other, Mithra followers would use the sign of a cross, and to officially initiate a new member, they would symbolically put water on his/her head, and give him/her a piece of bread to eat.

Such coincidences aren't coincidences IMHO.

Now, in 2013, it's still too awful to say this in front of our Christian friends, especially because we don't want to offend them. But who knows, within the next century it might become the official scientific consensus, and our grandchildren might laugh about the religious prudery we still exhibit today.
 

greenfairy

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I celebrate the pagan parts. Which is a lot of it. And the traditions I like which come from other stuff, just because I like them. I'm not really sure which ones are Christian, but there probably aren't many. I just lump it together with Yule and acknowledge Jesus as a cool guy.
 

Z Buck McFate

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Do you have any sources? I'm asking because I have read and heard (from historians) the opposite many times but have always been interested in this.


If I'm remembering correctly, Tacitus is the only one who mentions "Christ". Here's a page on the problems people have with it being 'proof' Jesus existed (even just as a man).

I can't remember everything that led me to this decision, but I remember thinking that he probably was real (regardless of whether or not he was the son of God). eta: Arguments to the contrary seem to me like Atheists picking a nit because it isn't irrefutable- as if 'probable' isn't good enough.



As for the op, I agree with whoever said the thing about tradition having a value in itself. I grew up with absolutely no association between Christmas and Christianity- just because some other people have a strong association, that doesn't negate the meaning I've come to imbibe it with myself.
 

chubber

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Isn't Christmas a pagan holiday anyway?

I think so, they had to recruit them by merging multiple holidays of different religions, e.g. even the Mary female was imported from another religion where they worshipped some singular female deity.
 
V

violaine

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I'm in it for the fun and decorations. Don't care for the gifts. I love trimming the tree more than anything. I was always taught Christmas isn't Christian, so there's no cognitive dissonance for me. I think of it as a co-opted, mish-mash of traditions that colliding cultures cobbled together so they could all get their party on. :). I only recently started to celebrate it too; it is entirely possible to navigate the season without anyone bringing religion into it where I live. I don't mind if people do, it means different things to people, even nothing to some.
 
N

ndovjtjcaqidthi

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I think so, they had to recruit them by merging multiple holidays of different religions, e.g. even the Mary female was imported from another religion where they worshipped some singular female deity.

Mhmm.
 
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