Atheists celebrating Christmas.

[Kasper]

Sorry- I just don't buy that people of TODAY that are atheists celebrate Christmas because of these other non-Christian historical reasons.
I don't buy it.
You do it for the presents and the fun and the food.

Actually, the answer is because it's a cultural tradition. If someone happens to be Christian and there is a link for them between their religion and Christmas then that would be their cultural tradition, for those who are not Christian, not religious, or simply do not link it to their faith, then it's a tradition without a link to religion, that's all.

We have a holiday for the Queen's birthday, I promise you the vast majority of people aren't giving a toss about the royal family as they enjoy a day off work doing whatever they do on that day, yet we all take advantage of it, including those who want Oz to be a republic, Christmas just has a whole heap of rituals around it like glowy trees, overloading on food/drink, presents etc. which keep retailers happy, with the focal point of being with others, specifically family. It's reported that people get lonely at Christmas more than any other time if they have no (contact with) family, that right there suggests a meaning more significant than religion.

I guess as an ENFP who is fascinated by what makes people tick and how they tick etc.- I'm trying to reconcile this idea that someone is "going with the crowd" and celebrating a Christian holiday (regardless of the origins of the specific rituals) when they outwardly deny Christianity.

Justify why it's a Christian holiday for all the parts of the world that are grey below. My country overall isn't especially religious, at least not in an active way, yet all the shops close down, no one works or goes to school and there are Santa Clause's everywhere waving in time to elevator sounding carols. Even ignoring the pagan origins it is still not a Christian holiday, it is a nation wide holiday that comes from tradition, there are those who choose to take the time to celebrate their religion, culturally though that isn't a default. Like Riva said, there are even countries with a religious majority other than Christianity that don't avoid Christmas.

Now compare with the below two maps. World religions:

And the importance of religion:

Seems most of the world get's a Christmas break, including non-Christian countries, and those who don't care much about their religion even if the main one is Christianity.

I'm wondering how an individual feels "okay" with this. If you are firm in your atheist beliefs, why not forgo any Christmas celebration? I can see going along with it for friends that are Christian. But putting up a tree, buying presents. I dunno. I've always been bewildered by people that celebrate to the hilt but do not respect the reason behind it.

Firstly because it bugs me, Atheism is a lack of beliefs so "firm in your atheist beliefs" doesn't work understanding this point, although it may seem minor is very relevant because Atheist does not imply anti-theist therefore there is no need to be against anything such as Christianity.

Consider how you would feel if you were told by a Muslim that Allah was the one true God and your Christian beliefs were blasphemous and you would go to hell because you believed the wrong thing. You wouldn't care, right? Their version of reality doesn't match with yours so you would pay them no mind. Well that's about how much Atheists care about Christian's telling them about Christianity, personally I don't see it as a Christian holiday and I don't care if others see it as such, it has zero meaning to me when someone talks about the birth, death or life of Jesus or what Christmas is supposed to mean according to them, as you are Christian it's a view that you can't seem to understand so liken it to a different faith and try to understand how much you wouldn't care. And because you wouldn't care you wouldn't shun a public holiday because of it, you wouldn't ignore the celebrations either, frankly they're damn hard to ignore and takes a very deliberate act do to so.

I know this first hand because the most amusing part of this conversation to me is I grew up in an extremely conservative religion that was a spin-off form of Christianity and we were not allowed to celebrate Christmas growing up because of how "un-holy" the origins of the holiday were, they actively shunned Christmas, I was 14-15 the first time we did anything which was after we left the religion. Avoiding Christmas takes energy. If the tradition of Christmas died I wouldn't care, but so long as it happens I'll enjoy the two days off work and consider the blinky fairy lights pretty.

 

[prplchknz]

a thousand years from now people are gonna be like silly humans and read.Christian myths like we read greek myths now

 

[Riva]

[MENTION=6164]Riva[/MENTION] What do you think of Europeans and North Americans celebrating Holi as a completely secular fun party? That would be a case of the West imitating the East, maybe even of cultural appropriation. Holi is becoming increasingly popular in my part of the world.

You are asking the wrong person because we don't celebrate it here and i have never celebrated it in my life. It hasn't gained popularity here and hasn't been marketed here as a secular fun activity. So i think the best person to ask is our own little brahmin girl [MENTION=13147]senza tema[/MENTION]. As a person who never celebrates it; i think it's really good thing since it would teach people religious tolerence.

We have our own secular yet religious ways of celebrating hinduism here. People visit kovils quite a lot here, worship hindu gods but doesn' adhere to their strict religious or caste conscious aspects of it.

 

[AzulEyes]

Actually, the answer is because it's a cultural tradition. If someone happens to be Christian and there is a link for them between their religion and Christmas then that would be their cultural tradition, for those who are not Christian, not religious, or simply do not link it to their faith, then it's a tradition without a link to religion, that's all.

We have a holiday for the Queen's birthday, I promise you the vast majority of people aren't giving a toss about the royal family as they enjoy a day off work doing whatever they do on that day, yet we all take advantage of it, including those who want Oz to be a republic, Christmas just has a whole heap of rituals around it like glowy trees, overloading on food/drink, presents etc. which keep retailers happy, with the focal point of being with others, specifically family. It's reported that people get lonely at Christmas more than any other time if they have no (contact with) family, that right there suggests a meaning more significant than religion.



Justify why it's a Christian holiday for all the parts of the world that are grey below. My country overall isn't especially religious, at least not in an active way, yet all the shops close down, no one works or goes to school and there are Santa Clause's everywhere waving in time to elevator sounding carols. Even ignoring the pagan origins it is still not a Christian holiday, it is a nation wide holiday that comes from tradition, there are those who choose to take the time to celebrate their religion, culturally though that isn't a default. Like Riva said, there are even countries with a religious majority other than Christianity that don't avoid Christmas.

Now compare with the below two maps. World religions:

And the importance of religion:

Seems most of the world get's a Christmas break, including non-Christian countries, and those who don't care much about their religion even if the main one is Christianity.



Firstly because it bugs me, Atheism is a lack of beliefs so "firm in your atheist beliefs" doesn't work understanding this point, although it may seem minor is very relevant because Atheist does not imply anti-theist therefore there is no need to be against anything such as Christianity.

Consider how you would feel if you were told by a Muslim that Allah was the one true God and your Christian beliefs were blasphemous and you would go to hell because you believed the wrong thing. You wouldn't care, right? Their version of reality doesn't match with yours so you would pay them no mind. Well that's about how much Atheists care about Christian's telling them about Christianity, personally I don't see it as a Christian holiday and I don't care if others see it as such, it has zero meaning to me when someone talks about the birth, death or life of Jesus or what Christmas is supposed to mean according to them, as you are Christian it's a view that you can't seem to understand so liken it to a different faith and try to understand how much you wouldn't care. And because you wouldn't care you wouldn't shun a public holiday because of it, you wouldn't ignore the celebrations either, frankly they're damn hard to ignore and takes a very deliberate act do to so.

I know this first hand because the most amusing part of this conversation to me is I grew up in an extremely conservative religion that was a spin-off form of Christianity and we were not allowed to celebrate Christmas growing up because of how "un-holy" the origins of the holiday were, they actively shunned Christmas, I was 14-15 the first time we did anything which was after we left the religion. Avoiding Christmas takes energy. If the tradition of Christmas died I wouldn't care, but so long as it happens I'll enjoy the two days off work and consider the blinky fairy lights pretty.

Wow - these maps are really cool. I am starting to get the drift of you non-theists.

And it's interesting how you point out that avoiding Christmas is a very deliberate effort. I agree. It is shoved down our throats. I read on another forum a very strong willed NT demanding that they do NOT celebrate Christmas and that they take offense to anyone trying to celebrate with them by attempting to give them gifts (which are NOT accepted) and they are all put off by these outward and unwelcome gestures of holiday cheer by the outside world. So that - I guess- is the far extreme of being a Grinch-where being one is pretty much impossible in some cases without looking like a complete asshole.

We can all probably agree that Christmas has taken on a life of it's own. And it is this hugely insane ball of energy- that means different things to different people- that consumerism has it's claws firmly grasped into/onto/making love to and it cannot be escaped for all intents and purposes.

 

[Coriolis]

Seems most of the world get's a Christmas break, including non-Christian countries, and those who don't care much about their religion even if the main one is Christianity.

Firstly because it bugs me, Atheism is a lack of beliefs so "firm in your atheist beliefs" doesn't work understanding this point, although it may seem minor is very relevant because Atheist does not imply anti-theist therefore there is no need to be against anything such as Christianity.

What you describe here seems more like agnosticism, while atheism by contrast is belief that there is no God. As such, it is a belief just as much as any religion. I'm sure agnostics are just as likely to celebrate Christmas, though, in cultures where it is prevalent.

Everyone seems to celebrate something at this time of year. In my area, people often speak of "Winter break/holidays", so you just fill in the space with whatever you and your family do.

a thousand years from now people are gonna be like silly humans and read.Christian myths like we read greek myths now

Some of us already do.

 

[prplchknz]

Some of us already do.

I know but Imean iit's going to be a dead religion.

 

[Blackmail!]

What you describe here seems more like agnosticism, while atheism by contrast is belief that there is no God. As such, it is a belief just as much as any religion. I'm sure agnostics are just as likely to celebrate Christmas, though, in cultures where it is prevalent.

Technically, that's not correct.

For a true agnostic, the question whether "God exists or not" matters and has a meaning, even if s/he doesn't know the answer.
On the other hand, people who don't care at all are called apatheists, or practical atheists. It's already Atheism, and as a matter of fact, Atheism can come with a lot of different flavors.

And allow me to repeat an analogy a rigorous mind like yours will probably understand: claiming that Atheism is a belief is like claiming that the absence of sugar in coffee is a taste.

Or in logical terms:

Non-X is not equivalent to X.

 

[Habba]

But one can not know that gods do not exist, therefore we can only believe that they do not exist. In that sense, atheism is also a belief.

 

[Blackmail!]

But one can not know that gods do not exist, therefore we can only believe that they do not exist. In that sense, atheism is also a belief.

Logical fallacy. But if you want to believe in it, fine...

 

[SensEye]

And allow me to repeat an analogy a rigorous mind like yours will probably understand: claiming that Atheism is a belief is like claiming that the absence of sugar in coffee is a taste.

Or in logical terms:

Non-X is not equivalent to X.

Indeed. I was somewhat surprised to see the usually sensible Coriolis espousing such a view.

There are what I refer to as 'militant atheists' who claim with 100% certainty that no god exists. This degree of certainty is unwarranted, and you could possibly consider that 100% certainty a faith statement, but an atheist who simply claims since no god has been proven to exist, it is reasonable to conclude no god exists, is not expressing a statement of faith.

 

[skylights]

Logical fallacy. But if you want to believe in it, fine...

I was of the understanding that this is the difference between soft/weak/negative/implicit atheism, or agnostic atheism, versus hard/strong/positive/explicit atheism, wherein the former category expresses no belief in theos, while the latter category expresses belief in no theos.

Technically, semantically, both categories would therefore be a-theistic, or without theos, but the latter is anti-theistic as well.

 

[Habba]

Logical fallacy. But if you want to believe in it, fine...

The odds are pretty much against the existance of gods, but it is pretty much impossible to prove that there are no gods. Therefore you may either believe that there are no gods, or know that there probably are no gods.

 

[Kasper]

What you describe here seems more like agnosticism, while atheism by contrast is belief that there is no God. As such, it is a belief just as much as any religion.

No, I'm talking of atheism, lack of belief in a deity should not be characterised as the same as having a belief. I don't believe in fairies either, yet people wouldn't go around considering my lack of faith that fairies live in gardens is the same as someone who believes they do, it is simply a lack of belief.

atheist
ˈeɪθɪɪst/
noun
noun: atheist; plural noun: atheists

1.
a person who disbelieves or lacks belief in the existence of God or gods.

 

[miss fortune]

hmmm... wouldn't you have to believe in something one way or another, even if it's believing that there is nothing?

and just because someone doesn't believe in a god of some sort doesn't mean that they don't believe in anything... (for those in doubt go to a few 12 step meetings and talk to some people... it can get pretty odd)

I live in an agnostic household... neither of us is all christian-y or anything, but we do indulge in christmas in our weird, agnostic manner because families expect it and such. We give each other gifts year round, but we always get each other something extra awesome sometime between Halloween and New Years every year... in part to break up the monotony of a midwestern winter. We do all of the Christmas celebration stuff with family because they find the traditions to be important. We don't decorate the house or yard or go to church or send out cards or anything... tradition for the sake of it isn't all that important to us

It doesn't bother me if an Atheist or an Agnostic or even someone from another religion celebrates Christmas though... it's a major commercial holiday that's become pretty damned secularized... it's celebrated in most schools around here and on TV and in the mall and such. In my book Christmas is like Valentine's Day or the 4th of July... just another holiday with it's traditions

 

[The Iron Giant]

I know a lot of atheists- or people who do not believe in God- or the miracle birth of Jesus, who celebrate Christmas.

Trees, lights, presents- the whole nine yards.

This is strange to me.

What gives?

Trees, lights, and presents aren't from Christianity. Neither are holly, the Santa myth, or anything else you associate with Christmas... except for the Jesus myth. Just because I don't believe in that doesn't mean I can't follow the parts of the Yule celebration that long predate Christianity.

 

[Kasper]

hmmm... wouldn't you have to believe in something one way or another, even if it's believing that there is nothing?

No. Would you call someone who had never heard the concept of a deity a believer in something? They would by default be atheist as they lack belief in a deity.

and just because someone doesn't believe in a god of some sort doesn't mean that they don't believe in anything...

Yes.

An atheist may hold a belief, but atheism is inherently the lack of one while theism is inherently a belief, and agnosticism is not making up ones mind, maybe belief maybe not, but it would also count as the lack of a belief. People see agnosticism as the "true neutral" with religion, yet with most other aspects of life, the lack of belief in something is not seen as holding a position, just as not having something is not the same as having something, absence does not imply a positive. If an atheist believes that the world was created by a dog farting then that would be a belief, however the only thing all atheists have in common is that none of us believe in a god or gods, we lack belief.

If you hold out you hand and one person tells you there is a very tiny invisible elf on it, that would be them holding a belief, if another person tells you you're holding oxygen that would also be a belief (a rather reasonable one), if you do not agree with the person who says you have an elf that is not a belief (you may believe they're bonkers though), if you do not agree with the person who says you have a fist full of oxygen that would also not be a belief (they may think you're stupid though). Theism holds a positive view, your own view on faith determines if you see them as the person believing in oxygen or an elf, agnosticism holds all views as options without making up their mind, maybe there is an elf, maybe there is oxygen, or maybe not, atheism does not agree with a view, again depending on your perspective it may be the oxygen or the elf, it does not default to telling you what is actually there in their belief.

The thing is religion and faith is so popular that those who do believe often claim that atheism is a belief as they see those who do not agree with them to hold a belief because their default is a world with a deity and someone without faith must be wrong.

As an atheist I don't believe in a god, that is not a positive thought, I don't replace him with something else to believe in, I nothing him, I also nothing Zeus, fairies, elves and invisible jumping beans and yet because of the world we live in, no one would think twice about me 'holding a belief' with anything mentioned except not believing in a deity. It is not a consistent standard.

 

[Coriolis]

There are what I refer to as 'militant atheists' who claim with 100% certainty that no god exists. This degree of certainty is unwarranted, and you could possibly consider that 100% certainty a faith statement, but an atheist who simply claims since no god has been proven to exist, it is reasonable to conclude no god exists, is not expressing a statement of faith.

It all comes down to how one defines terms. I tend to use "atheist" to refer to the highlighted, though it can certainly include the rest as long as one is clear on definitions. The definitions I usually use are these, from the Free Dictionary, but similar to those found elsewhere.

Agnostic (literally without knowledge): " One who believes that it is impossible to know whether there is a God," usually because there is insufficient evidence; or "One who is skeptical about the existence of God but does not profess true atheism."

Atheist: "One who disbelieves or denies the existence of God or gods."

Theist: "one who believes in the existence of a god or gods".

In other words, the theist concludes that deity exists; the atheist that deity does not exist; and the true agnostic holds that there is not enough evidence to support either belief or disbelief, and so forms no conclusion on the matter. The last is the most logically supportable point of view.

 

[miss fortune]

No. Would you call someone who had never heard the concept of a deity a believer in something? They would by default be atheist as they lack belief in a deity.



Yes.

An atheist may hold a belief, but atheism is inherently the lack of one while theism is inherently a belief, and agnosticism is not making up ones mind, maybe belief maybe not, but it would also count as the lack of a belief. People see agnosticism as the "true neutral" with religion, yet with most other aspects of life, the lack of belief in something is not seen as holding a position, just as not having something is not the same as having something, absence does not imply a positive. If an atheist believes that the world was created by a dog farting then that would be a belief, however the only thing all atheists have in common is that none of us believe in a god or gods, we lack belief.

If you hold out you hand and one person tells you there is a very tiny invisible elf on it, that would be them holding a belief, if another person tells you you're holding oxygen that would also be a belief (a rather reasonable one), if you do not agree with the person who says you have an elf that is not a belief (you may believe they're bonkers though), if you do not agree with the person who says you have a fist full of oxygen that would also not be a belief (they may think you're stupid though). Theism holds a positive view, your own view on faith determines if you see them as the person believing in oxygen or an elf, agnosticism holds all views as options without making up their mind, maybe there is an elf, maybe there is oxygen, or maybe not, atheism does not agree with a view, again depending on your perspective it may be the oxygen or the elf, it does not default to telling you what is actually there in their belief.

The thing is religion and faith is so popular that those who do believe often claim that atheism is a belief as they see those who do not agree with them to hold a belief because their default is a world with a deity and someone without faith must be wrong.

As an atheist I don't believe in a god, that is not a positive thought, I don't replace him with something else to believe in, I nothing him, I also nothing Zeus, fairies, elves and invisible jumping beans and yet because of the world we live in, no one would think twice about me 'holding a belief' with anything mentioned except not believing in a deity. It is not a consistent standard.

I think you may have misinterpreted what I said there a bit

I'll use Terry Pratchett's Lies to Children concept here to go along with one of the sociocultural theories on the reason for religions. There are concepts, like the ideas of justice, generosity, not gutting people like fish because they're being asshats and telling the truth that make societies run a hell of a lot easier. Of course it's not necessarily to an individual's best interest for their personal survival to go around sharing their shit and such, which makes communal living a bit more difficult. With religion invented as an explanation for things that people didn't understand it was a hell of a lot easier to codify these social concepts into laws and get people to follow them. It's easier to tell someone that the big man in the sky will be pissed off if they murder their neighbor Joe and steal his cows than to explain to someone that, while murdering Joe and taking his cows may be good for them in the short run, if EVERYONE took to murdering their neighbors to steal their cows there'd be a lot less people around and everyone would be all paranoid a la Spy v Spy.

Yeah, the God is going to cast you into a pit of flames for being a dick may be a lie, but not killing Joe is still a good idea.

What I'm getting at here is that while an atheist may not believe in God, The Devil or the Tooth Fairy they still probably believe in things such as truth and not going around and killing people. Technically those concepts are rather abstract as well... Not believing in some bearded man in the sky doesn't necessarily equate to lack of belief in other abstract concepts

that's just my two cents trying to clarify a point there... not meaning to take off from the track and make for the hills

 

[SpankyMcFly]

I am an atheist and I celebrate Christmas. I was raised with gift giving, a tree, lots of good food, family, present giving, stockings etc. I had no idea of the whys, nor did I really care as a child. My current practice is an exercise in tradition passed onto me by my family.

 

[Coriolis]

With religion invented as an explanation for things that people didn't understand it was a hell of a lot easier to codify these social concepts into laws and get people to follow them. It's easier to tell someone that the big man in the sky will be pissed off if they murder their neighbor Joe and steal his cows than to explain to someone that, while murdering Joe and taking his cows may be good for them in the short run, if EVERYONE took to murdering their neighbors to steal their cows there'd be a lot less people around and everyone would be all paranoid a la Spy v Spy.

Yeah, the God is going to cast you into a pit of flames for being a dick may be a lie, but not killing Joe is still a good idea.

What I'm getting at here is that while an atheist may not believe in God, The Devil or the Tooth Fairy they still probably believe in things such as truth and not going around and killing people. Technically those concepts are rather abstract as well... Not believing in some bearded man in the sky doesn't necessarily equate to lack of belief in other abstract concepts

When Joe's neighbor gets to thinking and realizes there is precious little evidence supporting the existence of this man in the sky, and throws that idea out, will he also reject the notion that it is bad to kill Joe and steal his cows, since the justification for it no longer (to him) exists? Better to have our morals on a firmer footing than that, one that will weather the evolution of our personal ideals and beliefs.