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  1. #61
    Gotta catch you all! Blackmail!'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Z Buck McFate View Post
    If I'm remembering correctly, Tacitus is the only one who mentions "Christ". Here's a page on the problems people have with it being 'proof' Jesus existed (even just as a man).
    This so-called Tacitus letter is a crude fake written by Poggio Bracciolini during the XVIth century. Too many references are incorrect (Pilatus was a praefect, and not a procurator). Even the Vatican officially acknowledges that this part of Tacite's manuscript is "odd" and probably of dubious origins.

    Once again, it's not "nit-picking", it's just denouncing a pious fraud.

    Plus the site you quote is written and designed by a Christian apologist who seems to be on a personal crusade against Atheism. Not the most neutral source If I may say...

    What's next?
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  2. #62
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Yeah, I didn't think the derail would take long...
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  3. #63
    can't handcuff the wind Z Buck McFate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by violaine View Post
    it is entirely possible to navigate the season without anyone bringing religion into it where I live.
    Yep. I had no idea it was a religious holiday to other people until I was older- because none of my friends' families were religious either.

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackmail! View Post

    Plus the site you quote is written and designed by a Christian apologist who seems to be on a personal crusade against Atheism. Not the most neutral source If I may say...
    I had just googled "Tacitus" to see if I had the name right. I have no stakes one way or the other, whether Jesus really is the son of God or not- all I know is that I've read through a bit of ancient Roman historian text, and that bit stood out to me when I did. I don't think I've ever heard this accusation about Tacitus's account being fake before- though I linked one of the first pages that came up with my search (so I can't speak to that person's credibility), the excerpt from Tacitus is the same one I've read before. You might want to link some credible sources if you expect anyone to believe Tacitus' account of history is fake.
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  4. #64
    Emperor/Dictator kyuuei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AzulEyes View Post
    I still don't get it guys.

    It is clearly celebrating the birth of Christ. Considered a "Savior" to Christians. A life-changing event- the pinnacle event of Christiandom.

    Doesn't it seem like people are just jumping on the bandwagon to have the fun stuff- the presents and food and festivities- and that it is a disrespect to Christianity if you outright deny the existance of God and Jesus?
    If it makes you feel better, I don't think Jesus was even born in December.

    Christians jumped on the bandwagon of fun stuff long before it was ever called Christmas. When cultures mesh together, good or bad, they both bring away stuff from the other. Christianity dominated and marched onward--but Paganism left its mark on it in a quiet way. All the 'fun' stuff is Pagan in nature. That's why JW's and stuff don't really like it.
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  5. #65
    Senior Member AzulEyes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post
    If it makes you feel better, I don't think Jesus was even born in December.

    Christians jumped on the bandwagon of fun stuff long before it was ever called Christmas. When cultures mesh together, good or bad, they both bring away stuff from the other. Christianity dominated and marched onward--but Paganism left its mark on it in a quiet way. All the 'fun' stuff is Pagan in nature. That's why JW's and stuff don't really like it.
    I don't think he was born in December either.
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  6. #66
    Gotta catch you all! Blackmail!'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Z Buck McFate View Post
    Yep. I had no idea it was a religious holiday to other people until I was older- because none of my friends' families were religious either.



    I had just googled "Tacitus" to see if I had the name right. I have no stakes one way or the other, whether Jesus really is the son of God or not- all I know is that I've read through a bit of ancient Roman historian text, and that bit stood out to me when I did. I don't think I've ever heard this accusation about Tacitus's account being fake before- though I linked one of the first pages that came up with my search (so I can't speak to that person's credibility), the excerpt from Tacitus is the same one I've read before. You might want to link some credible sources if you expect anyone to believe Tacitus' account of history is fake.
    I already gave you a few hints.

    First, in Tacitus letter, we have the word "Christians". But this word didn't exist at his time. And the official Roman records shows that emperor Nero didn't blame "Christians" but "Jews" for the burning of Rome.
    Secondly, no historian (even Christian historians) refered to this excerpt of Tacitus before the Vth century. And it was first quoted only during the Renaissance. It is extremely odd, not to say impossible.
    Thirdly, even the Vatican officially admits that this letter must be taken "with a pinch of salt". Only protestant theologians staunchly defend the authenticity of this letter: just check Wikipedia, their insistance to defend what can't be defended is quite ridiculous. Who is wikipedia quoting when it claims that the letter is authentic? Their first references are Robert E. Van Voorst (a conservative theologian), Greg Boyd (a "born-again" pastor), Andreas Köstenberger (an Evangelical pastor)... and so on, and so on.

    Just check your sources in detail, this crude manipulation is appalling.

    Why do you think that wikipedia seems totally unable to quote any real independant historian or genuine scientific works?
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  7. #67
    Gotta catch you all! Blackmail!'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AzulEyes View Post
    I don't think he was born in December either.
    "He" wasn't born at all. Just check Nazareth for instance: this town didn't exist in the first century. So the gospels claims that Yehoshua was born in a town that didn't exist yet: don't you see how absurd this claim is?

    On the other hand, the fact that there wasn't a town called Nazareth before the middle of the second century (not before 135 AD) is well established, both by historians and archaelogists. The area that would be known later as "Nazareth" was not even inhabited during the times of emperor Tiberius.
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  8. #68
    failure to thrive AphroditeGoneAwry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackmail! View Post
    "He" wasn't born at all. Just check Nazareth for instance: this town didn't exist in the first century. So the gospels claims that Yehoshua was born in a town that didn't exist yet: don't you see how absurd this claim is?

    On the other hand, the fact that there wasn't a town called Nazareth before the middle of the second century (not before 135 AD) is well established, both by historians and archaelogists. The area that would be known later as "Nazareth" was not even inhabited during the times of emperor Tiberius.
    When I wikied it, I found nothing that supports that Nazareth did not exist. I found that Bethlehem has BC archaeological foundations too.
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  9. #69
    Gotta catch you all! Blackmail!'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AphroditeGoneAwry View Post
    When I wikied it, I found nothing that supports that Nazareth did not exist. I found that Bethlehem has BC archaeological foundations too.
    http://www.nazarethmyth.info/naz1article.html

    Or

    http://www.jesusneverexisted.com/nazareth.html

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  10. #70
    Musician Forever's Avatar
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    My views:

    Does it matter? No.

    Let people celebrate the way the want to celebrate it? Sure.

    I'm not a fan of setting up all the lights but I still think it's pretty to look on to some people's homes?

    It's a day that was originally pagan traditions and is debated when is Jesus Christ's true birthday was.

    I still think it's nice to have a day set up for him, regardless if it's spot on, is his birthday or not.

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