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  1. #161
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AzulEyes View Post
    Tradition is one of those things that develop over time- and though Christmas has SO MANY traditions attached to it----- I am finding that disecting the origins of certain traditions to discredit Christmas as being sort of hypocritical. So .... we have 'pagan' traditions which makes something 'pagan.' Yet- Christmas is not allowed to have been built upon any traditions that came before the birth of Christ? Then--- what would they be building upon?? NOTHING? If I am to start a new tradition right this moment- it will start from SOMETHING. Perhaps---- it will start with my Ipod. Because I own an iPod. So then- will my celebration get discredited in some way having to do with the origin of iPods, Apple, the fact that Steve Jobs was born into a Muslim family ... I mean... so WHAT if some of the traditions of trees and ornaments and whatever started out as Pagan? That is all Christians KNEW before Christ was born.

    It's fine if someone who does not believe in Christ to celebrate Christmas- I believe in freedom of thought. But I'm just saying- a lot of discrediting Christmas has gone on in this thread and I don't buy it.
    Identifying the pre-Christian roots of common Christmas traditions does nothing to discredit celebration of the birth of Christ. That is based on a belief system independent of whatever human means are enlisted in its observance. At the same time, some of us cannot help but see the birth of Christ as just one representation of something even greater, which is symbolized by the creation itself at this time of year. The popularity of Christianity does nothing to discredit that, either. Just more examples of the common threads that run through the various human faiths.

    Faiths differ sometimes in how they interpret common elements, however. I have heard elaborate Christian sermons tying the wood of the manger to the wood of the cross; the first representing the life born in Christ; the second representing the rebirth/triumph over death. Your average Pagan finds all this so much mental gymnastics, and is content to see life in the original tree itself, unshaped to any human purpose.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  2. #162
    Member keto chameleon's Avatar
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    on the one hand it seems funny when someone who doesn't believe in god celebrates jc's birthday. but on the other hand christmas doesn't really mean anything in terms of its religious connections to most people, and usually its more about family getting together ,exchanging gifts and feasting.

  3. #163
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Hackett View Post
    on the one hand it seems funny when someone who doesn't believe in god celebrates jc's birthday. but on the other hand christmas doesn't really mean anything in terms of its religious connections to most people, and usually its more about family getting together ,exchanging gifts and feasting.
    It might make more sense to think of the rest of us celebrating ON Jesus' birthday rather than celebrating his birth specifically. Except that he really wasn't born at this time of year at all. So, Christians are really celebrating Jesus' birth on the old traditional (i.e. Pagan) winter festival.

    It sure seems funny when they do that.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  4. #164
    The Typing Tabby grey_beard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    Identifying the pre-Christian roots of common Christmas traditions does nothing to discredit celebration of the birth of Christ. That is based on a belief system independent of whatever human means are enlisted in its observance. At the same time, some of us cannot help but see the birth of Christ as just one representation of something even greater, which is symbolized by the creation itself at this time of year. The popularity of Christianity does nothing to discredit that, either. Just more examples of the common threads that run through the various human faiths.

    Faiths differ sometimes in how they interpret common elements, however. I have heard elaborate Christian sermons tying the wood of the manger to the wood of the cross; the first representing the life born in Christ; the second representing the rebirth/triumph over death. Your average Pagan finds all this so much mental gymnastics, and is content to see life in the original tree itself, unshaped to any human purpose.
    Just to yank your chain , I'd suggest that the Manger and the Cross were not human purposes...at least not to the occupants. (Jesus was born in Bethlehem due to a side trip to register with the IRS, so to speak, and secondarily because all the Holiday Inns were already booked; Joseph apparently hadn't heard of Priceline or Hotels.com; and less than a day before His brief stay on the Cross, Jesus was praying pretty hard that he wouldn't have to go there at all, and even the Roman authority, upon cross-examining Jesus, tried to stop at a flogging, but had to relent when he saw a riot brewing.)

    I agree that many Christians (and some Jews) engage in these mental gymnastics -- read Chaim Potok's The Chosen, where it is called pilpul; or Richard Feynman's Surely You're Joking, Mr. Feynman where he admits to getting bested in theological hair-splitting with some devout Jews over the *exact* definition of "work" on the Sabbath. But on the other hand, the secularists, particularly in the humanities, do it too, as evidenced by Alan Sokal's famous hoax, or the mere *existence* of the book The Sexual Politics of Meat.
    Last edited by grey_beard; 02-01-2014 at 09:45 AM. Reason: italicize title of Feynman book
    "Love never needs time. But friendship always needs time. More and more and more time, up to long past midnight." -- The Crime of Captain Gahagan

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  5. #165
    The Typing Tabby grey_beard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orange Fusion View Post
    Why not change it to "World Winter Superday" then or something?
    Sorry for the necro thread, but...
    isn't that what Super Bowl Sunday is for?
    /American cultural imperialism>
    "Love never needs time. But friendship always needs time. More and more and more time, up to long past midnight." -- The Crime of Captain Gahagan

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  6. #166
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    *decides not to believe in a god for philosophical reasons*

    *celebrates a holiday fueled by greed*

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