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  1. #121
    Diabolical Kasper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AzulEyes View Post
    Sorry- I just don't buy that people of TODAY that are atheists celebrate Christmas because of these other non-Christian historical reasons.
    I don't buy it.
    You do it for the presents and the fun and the food.
    Actually, the answer is because it's a cultural tradition. If someone happens to be Christian and there is a link for them between their religion and Christmas then that would be their cultural tradition, for those who are not Christian, not religious, or simply do not link it to their faith, then it's a tradition without a link to religion, that's all.

    We have a holiday for the Queen's birthday, I promise you the vast majority of people aren't giving a toss about the royal family as they enjoy a day off work doing whatever they do on that day, yet we all take advantage of it, including those who want Oz to be a republic, Christmas just has a whole heap of rituals around it like glowy trees, overloading on food/drink, presents etc. which keep retailers happy, with the focal point of being with others, specifically family. It's reported that people get lonely at Christmas more than any other time if they have no (contact with) family, that right there suggests a meaning more significant than religion.

    Quote Originally Posted by AzulEyes View Post
    I guess as an ENFP who is fascinated by what makes people tick and how they tick etc.- I'm trying to reconcile this idea that someone is "going with the crowd" and celebrating a Christian holiday (regardless of the origins of the specific rituals) when they outwardly deny Christianity.
    Justify why it's a Christian holiday for all the parts of the world that are grey below. My country overall isn't especially religious, at least not in an active way, yet all the shops close down, no one works or goes to school and there are Santa Clause's everywhere waving in time to elevator sounding carols. Even ignoring the pagan origins it is still not a Christian holiday, it is a nation wide holiday that comes from tradition, there are those who choose to take the time to celebrate their religion, culturally though that isn't a default. Like Riva said, there are even countries with a religious majority other than Christianity that don't avoid Christmas.



    Now compare with the below two maps. World religions:



    And the importance of religion:



    Seems most of the world get's a Christmas break, including non-Christian countries, and those who don't care much about their religion even if the main one is Christianity.

    I'm wondering how an individual feels "okay" with this. If you are firm in your atheist beliefs, why not forgo any Christmas celebration? I can see going along with it for friends that are Christian. But putting up a tree, buying presents. I dunno. I've always been bewildered by people that celebrate to the hilt but do not respect the reason behind it.
    Firstly because it bugs me, Atheism is a lack of beliefs so "firm in your atheist beliefs" doesn't work understanding this point, although it may seem minor is very relevant because Atheist does not imply anti-theist therefore there is no need to be against anything such as Christianity.

    Consider how you would feel if you were told by a Muslim that Allah was the one true God and your Christian beliefs were blasphemous and you would go to hell because you believed the wrong thing. You wouldn't care, right? Their version of reality doesn't match with yours so you would pay them no mind. Well that's about how much Atheists care about Christian's telling them about Christianity, personally I don't see it as a Christian holiday and I don't care if others see it as such, it has zero meaning to me when someone talks about the birth, death or life of Jesus or what Christmas is supposed to mean according to them, as you are Christian it's a view that you can't seem to understand so liken it to a different faith and try to understand how much you wouldn't care. And because you wouldn't care you wouldn't shun a public holiday because of it, you wouldn't ignore the celebrations either, frankly they're damn hard to ignore and takes a very deliberate act do to so.

    I know this first hand because the most amusing part of this conversation to me is I grew up in an extremely conservative religion that was a spin-off form of Christianity and we were not allowed to celebrate Christmas growing up because of how "un-holy" the origins of the holiday were, they actively shunned Christmas, I was 14-15 the first time we did anything which was after we left the religion. Avoiding Christmas takes energy. If the tradition of Christmas died I wouldn't care, but so long as it happens I'll enjoy the two days off work and consider the blinky fairy lights pretty.

  2. #122
    Senior Member prplchknz's Avatar
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    a thousand years from now people are gonna be like silly humans and read.Christian myths like we read greek myths now

  3. #123
    Riva
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    Quote Originally Posted by Red Herring View Post
    @Riva What do you think of Europeans and North Americans celebrating Holi as a completely secular fun party? That would be a case of the West imitating the East, maybe even of cultural appropriation. Holi is becoming increasingly popular in my part of the world.
    You are asking the wrong person because we don't celebrate it here and i have never celebrated it in my life. It hasn't gained popularity here and hasn't been marketed here as a secular fun activity. So i think the best person to ask is our own little brahmin girl @senza tema. As a person who never celebrates it; i think it's really good thing since it would teach people religious tolerence.

    We have our own secular yet religious ways of celebrating hinduism here. People visit kovils quite a lot here, worship hindu gods but doesn' adhere to their strict religious or caste conscious aspects of it.

  4. #124
    Senior Member AzulEyes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kasper View Post
    Actually, the answer is because it's a cultural tradition. If someone happens to be Christian and there is a link for them between their religion and Christmas then that would be their cultural tradition, for those who are not Christian, not religious, or simply do not link it to their faith, then it's a tradition without a link to religion, that's all.

    We have a holiday for the Queen's birthday, I promise you the vast majority of people aren't giving a toss about the royal family as they enjoy a day off work doing whatever they do on that day, yet we all take advantage of it, including those who want Oz to be a republic, Christmas just has a whole heap of rituals around it like glowy trees, overloading on food/drink, presents etc. which keep retailers happy, with the focal point of being with others, specifically family. It's reported that people get lonely at Christmas more than any other time if they have no (contact with) family, that right there suggests a meaning more significant than religion.



    Justify why it's a Christian holiday for all the parts of the world that are grey below. My country overall isn't especially religious, at least not in an active way, yet all the shops close down, no one works or goes to school and there are Santa Clause's everywhere waving in time to elevator sounding carols. Even ignoring the pagan origins it is still not a Christian holiday, it is a nation wide holiday that comes from tradition, there are those who choose to take the time to celebrate their religion, culturally though that isn't a default. Like Riva said, there are even countries with a religious majority other than Christianity that don't avoid Christmas.



    Now compare with the below two maps. World religions:



    And the importance of religion:



    Seems most of the world get's a Christmas break, including non-Christian countries, and those who don't care much about their religion even if the main one is Christianity.



    Firstly because it bugs me, Atheism is a lack of beliefs so "firm in your atheist beliefs" doesn't work understanding this point, although it may seem minor is very relevant because Atheist does not imply anti-theist therefore there is no need to be against anything such as Christianity.

    Consider how you would feel if you were told by a Muslim that Allah was the one true God and your Christian beliefs were blasphemous and you would go to hell because you believed the wrong thing. You wouldn't care, right? Their version of reality doesn't match with yours so you would pay them no mind. Well that's about how much Atheists care about Christian's telling them about Christianity, personally I don't see it as a Christian holiday and I don't care if others see it as such, it has zero meaning to me when someone talks about the birth, death or life of Jesus or what Christmas is supposed to mean according to them, as you are Christian it's a view that you can't seem to understand so liken it to a different faith and try to understand how much you wouldn't care. And because you wouldn't care you wouldn't shun a public holiday because of it, you wouldn't ignore the celebrations either, frankly they're damn hard to ignore and takes a very deliberate act do to so.

    I know this first hand because the most amusing part of this conversation to me is I grew up in an extremely conservative religion that was a spin-off form of Christianity and we were not allowed to celebrate Christmas growing up because of how "un-holy" the origins of the holiday were, they actively shunned Christmas, I was 14-15 the first time we did anything which was after we left the religion. Avoiding Christmas takes energy. If the tradition of Christmas died I wouldn't care, but so long as it happens I'll enjoy the two days off work and consider the blinky fairy lights pretty.
    Wow - these maps are really cool. I am starting to get the drift of you non-theists.

    And it's interesting how you point out that avoiding Christmas is a very deliberate effort. I agree. It is shoved down our throats. I read on another forum a very strong willed NT demanding that they do NOT celebrate Christmas and that they take offense to anyone trying to celebrate with them by attempting to give them gifts (which are NOT accepted) and they are all put off by these outward and unwelcome gestures of holiday cheer by the outside world. So that - I guess- is the far extreme of being a Grinch-where being one is pretty much impossible in some cases without looking like a complete asshole.

    We can all probably agree that Christmas has taken on a life of it's own. And it is this hugely insane ball of energy- that means different things to different people- that consumerism has it's claws firmly grasped into/onto/making love to and it cannot be escaped for all intents and purposes.
    It takes courage to grow up and become who you really are. ~e.e. cummings

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  5. #125
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kasper View Post
    Seems most of the world get's a Christmas break, including non-Christian countries, and those who don't care much about their religion even if the main one is Christianity.

    Firstly because it bugs me, Atheism is a lack of beliefs so "firm in your atheist beliefs" doesn't work understanding this point, although it may seem minor is very relevant because Atheist does not imply anti-theist therefore there is no need to be against anything such as Christianity.
    What you describe here seems more like agnosticism, while atheism by contrast is belief that there is no God. As such, it is a belief just as much as any religion. I'm sure agnostics are just as likely to celebrate Christmas, though, in cultures where it is prevalent.

    Everyone seems to celebrate something at this time of year. In my area, people often speak of "Winter break/holidays", so you just fill in the space with whatever you and your family do.

    Quote Originally Posted by prplchknz View Post
    a thousand years from now people are gonna be like silly humans and read.Christian myths like we read greek myths now
    Some of us already do.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  6. #126
    Senior Member prplchknz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post


    Some of us already do.
    I know but Imean iit's going to be a dead religion.

  7. #127
    Gotta catch you all! Blackmail!'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    What you describe here seems more like agnosticism, while atheism by contrast is belief that there is no God. As such, it is a belief just as much as any religion. I'm sure agnostics are just as likely to celebrate Christmas, though, in cultures where it is prevalent.
    Technically, that's not correct.

    For a true agnostic, the question whether "God exists or not" matters and has a meaning, even if s/he doesn't know the answer.
    On the other hand, people who don't care at all are called apatheists, or practical atheists. It's already Atheism, and as a matter of fact, Atheism can come with a lot of different flavors.

    And allow me to repeat an analogy a rigorous mind like yours will probably understand: claiming that Atheism is a belief is like claiming that the absence of sugar in coffee is a taste.

    Or in logical terms:

    Non-X is not equivalent to X.
    "A man who only drinks water has a secret to hide from his fellow-men" -Baudelaire

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  8. #128
    Senior Member Habba's Avatar
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    But one can not know that gods do not exist, therefore we can only believe that they do not exist. In that sense, atheism is also a belief.
    "The present is theirs; the future, for which I have really worked, is mine."
    -Nikola Tesla

  9. #129
    Gotta catch you all! Blackmail!'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Habba View Post
    But one can not know that gods do not exist, therefore we can only believe that they do not exist. In that sense, atheism is also a belief.
    Logical fallacy. But if you want to believe in it, fine...
    "A man who only drinks water has a secret to hide from his fellow-men" -Baudelaire

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  10. #130
    Senior Member SensEye's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackmail! View Post
    And allow me to repeat an analogy a rigorous mind like yours will probably understand: claiming that Atheism is a belief is like claiming that the absence of sugar in coffee is a taste.

    Or in logical terms:

    Non-X is not equivalent to X.
    Indeed. I was somewhat surprised to see the usually sensible Coriolis espousing such a view.

    There are what I refer to as 'militant atheists' who claim with 100% certainty that no god exists. This degree of certainty is unwarranted, and you could possibly consider that 100% certainty a faith statement, but an atheist who simply claims since no god has been proven to exist, it is reasonable to conclude no god exists, is not expressing a statement of faith.

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