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  1. #101
    Senior Member AzulEyes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Forever_Jung View Post
    Yeah, I'm actually pretty jealous of that sacredness...I'm trying to get back to that place, but I'm missing something. Still, I enjoy Christmas.
    We are all on our own, individual journeys!
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  2. #102
    Unapologetic being Evolving Transparency's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eruca View Post
    You know, I think we can even go beyond the simple argument that states our winter festivals are as much pagan (and therefore open to all) as christian (and therefore exclusively connected to christians).

    Even if, let's imagine, the Christmas celebrations were conceived by European Christians in the middle ages, as well as the time of these celebrations. Modern day atheist Europeans (to take the obvious example) would still have a perfectly respectable claim to these traditions. For such traditions can be identified not just with christian tradition, but also European tradition (or now western tradition for the anglosphere countries etc). It might be said; well, the rational basis, the metaphorical valuation that gives meaning to said traditions, are christian first and foremost and to that I'd say to some degree, yes. While, on the other hand, this valuation is irrelevant for tradition supplies its own valuation in both cases. So often tradition withstands elimination even while its original meaning has been long ago lost; only the fact it is traditional provides it value. We accept this in most cases. Humans will defend tradition just for being traditional. This is the case for all cases of christmas observance; atheistic or Christian.
    @AzulEyes This is your answer ^ and it's the same answer that I came across in my marriage thread.

    And similar to you, I understand where people are coming from now...but I don't relate to their views or the traditions at all.

  3. #103
    Senior Member SensEye's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AzulEyes View Post
    If I were atheist, I personally would never celebrate Christmas. I would personally feel it was hypocritical. And if I'm going to denounce the existance of something, I'm certainly not going to partake in celebratory traditions surrounding it.
    I'm pretty sure you would continue to celebrate Christmas. You might not imagine you would, but your worldview would have to take a pretty drastic change for you to become an atheist, and your view on Christmas would likely change with it.

    As as been pointed out ad nauseum in this thread, the late December Yule/Winter festival/roman holiday (call it what you will) has been celebrated long before the notion of the "Jesus birth event" was ever associated with it. So there is no hypocrisy that needs be associated with once again de-coupling the celebration from any sacred association the may have erroneously built up as Christianity became entrenched in western culture.

  4. #104
    Senior Member AzulEyes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SensEye View Post
    I'm pretty sure you would continue to celebrate Christmas. You might not imagine you would, but your worldview would have to take a pretty drastic change for you to become an atheist, and your view on Christmas would likely change with it.

    As as been pointed out ad nauseum in this thread, the late December Yule/Winter festival/roman holiday (call it what you will) has been celebrated long before the notion of the "Jesus birth event" was ever associated with it. So there is no hypocrisy that needs be associated with once again de-coupling the celebration from any sacred association the may have erroneously built up as Christianity became entrenched in western culture.
    If I did celebrate it as an atheist, it would be to honor family members or friends who it was important to. I would not make it a priority in my life, plan parties and gatherings etc. on my own. I know how I am and how this stuff matters to me. But true- if I WERE to be an atheist- the "sacred" part of my determination in this would likely dissolve. But that will never happen. I will die believing in God.
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  5. #105
    Senior Member SensEye's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AzulEyes View Post
    I would not make it a priority in my life, plan parties and gatherings etc. on my own. I know how I am and how this stuff matters to me. But true- if I WERE to be an atheist- the "sacred" part of my determination in this would likely dissolve.
    I don't want to beat this to death, but I think you would still do the parties and gatherings etc. You would do them because they are fun. I think that is why you do them now. You go to church to celebrate the sacred nature of the event.

  6. #106
    Senior Member AzulEyes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SensEye View Post
    I don't want to beat this to death, but I think you would still do the parties and gatherings etc. You would do them because they are fun. I think that is why you do them now. You go to church to celebrate the sacred nature of the event.
    I actually sort of dread celebrations. The meaning of it is more important to me.
    It's hard to speculate since I'm a believer.
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  7. #107
    Senior Member tinker683's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SensEye View Post
    I don't want to beat this to death, but I think you would still do the parties and gatherings etc. You would do them because they are fun. I think that is why you do them now. You go to church to celebrate the sacred nature of the event.
    Seriously! I didn't realize one needed an event to be sacred in order to enjoy ham, mashed potatoes, and laughing at my family. I'm pretty all of those things are enjoyable entirely because...those things are enjoyable by themselves
    "The man who is swimming against the stream knows the strength of it."
    ― Woodrow Wilson

  8. #108
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AzulEyes View Post
    If I did celebrate it as an atheist, it would be to honor family members or friends who it was important to. I would not make it a priority in my life, plan parties and gatherings etc. on my own. I know how I am and how this stuff matters to me. But true- if I WERE to be an atheist- the "sacred" part of my determination in this would likely dissolve. But that will never happen. I will die believing in God.
    I have been in this place - unable truly to celebrate the birth of Christ, while going through the motions, partly to satisfy others, partly to ease the withdrawal symptoms. Eventually I found something I can celebrate with honesty and true joy at this time of year.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  9. #109
    Senior Member AzulEyes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    I have been in this place - unable truly to celebrate the birth of Christ, while going through the motions, partly to satisfy others, partly to ease the withdrawal symptoms. Eventually I found something I can celebrate with honesty and true joy at this time of year.
    Being true to one's self is the most peaceful place to be. And it's okay to go thru some motions for others (I feel) as long as it doesn't overly drain us / we don't overly sacrifice ourselves.
    It takes courage to grow up and become who you really are. ~e.e. cummings

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  10. #110
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AzulEyes View Post
    Being true to one's self is the most peaceful place to be. And it's okay to go thru some motions for others (I feel) as long as it doesn't overly drain us / we don't overly sacrifice ourselves.
    Yes. I have no problem being a guest/visitor at someone else's festivities. It's when I feel I have to find the same meaning in them as everyone else that it becomes very frustrating, like trying to be comfortable wearing someone else's shoes.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

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