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  1. #21
    Senior Member iNtrovert's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AffirmitiveAnxiety View Post
    People often collectively agree on morals, which is still subjective, but it's as close as we can get to being objective about morality.

    The subtle play of individual judgement always comes into play and human beings are more likely to align with those they hold the highest value of in their own lives.

    Rights are a rough way of making sure negative things don't happen to an individual, or rather yourself as the individual and so through those rights people believe they are setting a standard, I suppose if it could be adhered to strictly, there would be a rough standard, but the individual level always takes over in the heat of a moment.
    Do you feel that terms like good an evil or positive and negative are also subjective?
    "Re-examine all that you have been told... dismiss that which insults your soul."_Walt Whitman

  2. #22
    Senior Member danseen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Typh0n View Post
    And heres to you completely misunderstanding everything I wrote in that last post.

    *facepalm*
    I'm saying that morals don't exist and are a fiction. anything goes in life. And?

  3. #23
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    Everything the mind creates is subjective to some degree. Morality is one of the most subjective concepts there is. But it's a very important survival mechanism, so just because it is subjective, does not mean it isn't useful.

  4. #24
    Senior Member danseen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Infinite Bubble View Post
    Everything the mind creates is subjective to some degree. Morality is one of the most subjective concepts there is. But it's a very important survival mechanism, so just because it is subjective, does not mean it isn't useful.
    really? Morality is really a spent ideal, is it not?

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by danseen View Post
    really? Morality is really a spent ideal, is it not?
    It's a way of maintaining stability of the group through collective standards of behaviour. The group in this context generally encompasses the entire human "hive mind", but nuances exist through narrower contexts, and the more you hone in on these specifics, the more subtle the nuances (different cultures though, can differ by quite significant margins in some instances). i.e the hive mind -> culture -> region -> family -> individual (healthy), with the individual's morals being, by large, surprising impersonal. Time is a factor as well. Morals change dramatically but the majority of people of the time fit around the framework whatever they are.

  6. #26
    Wake, See, Sing, Dance Cellmold's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by iNtrovert View Post
    Do you feel that terms like good an evil or positive and negative are also subjective?
    No. I think they are, but I feel them differently.

    What I feel and think are very different. It's part of my illogical contradictions, and maybe a narrow black and white perspective, I can see how morals are really little more than a useful aid in our own survival and beyond that is mere fragility, but this does not mean I am able to detach myself from my morality, which is ingrained.

    I can rationalise that there is no more significance for a stranger dying in the street than one of my parents, as they are both...ultimately, just creatures dying by the variables they find themselves in and part of.

    But for one of my parents, would I be able to stop myself from rushing to their aid? I doubt it.

    Possibly this is as selfish as anything else, I would rush to them because inside I would not deem myself strong enough to deal without their presence. Or childhood fears of the invincibility of parents being made vincible.

    Perhaps I might even help the man dying on the street, but the motivation would be different, as different as our relationship and so there are different sets of morals for different relationships that I hold.

    It's somewhat cruel when put that way, but while we have the chemical reactions of emotion, we have valuation and that allows us to access something we cannot always rationalise, possibly because it is intrinsically part of us...the emotions, not morality.
    'One of (Lucas) Cranach's masterpieces, discussed by (Joseph) Koerner, is in it's self-referentiality the perfect expression of left-hemisphere emptiness and a precursor of post-modernism. There is no longer anything to point to beyond, nothing Other, so it points pointlessly to itself.' - Iain McGilChrist

    Suppose a tree fell down, Pooh, when we were underneath it?"
    "Suppose it didn't," said Pooh, after careful thought.
    Piglet was comforted by this.
    - A.A. Milne.

  7. #27
    philosopher wood nymph greenfairy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Concur_Withall View Post
    Morality is opposed to Self-interest. The latter is subjective, so the former is not.
    Actually morality takes self interest into account if you belief you have a moral duty to yourself.


    Morality in theory is objective but in practice is subjective. That's why purely subjectivist accounts of ethics fail, because they are incoherent. What separates something which is right from something which is purely a preference is its objective component. Each person has their own understanding of ethics as it is applied to real world issues, but the concept denotes objectivity.

  8. #28
    philosopher wood nymph greenfairy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by iNtrovert View Post
    Do you feel that terms like good an evil or positive and negative are also subjective?
    Good and its opposite (whether you take that to be merely bad or evil) are dichotomies, so it follows that if all sets are not identical at least one element in a person's set of good or bad will cancel out one in another person's.

    I think all morality is subjective in the sense that it is human value which is attached to empirical phenomena, and so without human beings to have preferences morality and ethics would not exist (unless there are other beings which have notions of ethics). But one can derive and approximate an objective element of ethics from that which all humans would agree upon should they be in their right mind- this last bit means that anyone who has an ethical opinion is valuing the interest or preservation of another, and so if one has this interest and is moderately successful at it (preserving oneself and others) one is in the right mind for having an ethical opinion.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by greenfairy View Post
    Actually morality takes self interest into account if you belief you have a moral duty to yourself.


    Morality in theory is objective but in practice is subjective. That's why purely subjectivist accounts of ethics fail, because they are incoherent. What separates something which is right from something which is purely a preference is its objective component. Each person has their own understanding of ethics as it is applied to real world issues, but the concept denotes objectivity.
    Actually, I believe your ONLY duty is towards yourself. Why? Because you only have access to yourself. Insofar as you have access to others, they become yourself.

    Charity starts at home. Treat others as you would rather be treated. God, we're a selfish bunch.

  10. #30
    Wake, See, Sing, Dance Cellmold's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Concur_Withall View Post
    Charity starts at home. Treat others as you would rather be treated. God, we're a selfish bunch.
    But if that kind of semi-aware selfishness, through heuristic evidence, leads to a shared beneficial, then it isn't such a 'bad' thing.

    Although i'm not saying you said it was bad
    'One of (Lucas) Cranach's masterpieces, discussed by (Joseph) Koerner, is in it's self-referentiality the perfect expression of left-hemisphere emptiness and a precursor of post-modernism. There is no longer anything to point to beyond, nothing Other, so it points pointlessly to itself.' - Iain McGilChrist

    Suppose a tree fell down, Pooh, when we were underneath it?"
    "Suppose it didn't," said Pooh, after careful thought.
    Piglet was comforted by this.
    - A.A. Milne.

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