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  1. #141
    Senior Member entpersonal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zago View Post
    I still want my Hitler argument addressed. You never really addressed it. Was Hitler wrong, or is it all just an opinion and Hitler was just as right as anyone has ever been?
    You're not getting the parameters of this - nobody has ever been right or wrong because right and wrong don't exist IRL.

  2. #142
    Senior Member entpersonal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zago View Post
    Heroin only promotes well being in the very short term. Obviously it is wrong to take heroin (and amphetamines, etc) if you're a normal person.
    Explain to me why this activity is "wrong" per se. What is a normal person exactly?

  3. #143
    Senior Member Alea_iacta_est's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zago View Post
    I still want my Hitler argument addressed. You never really addressed it. Was Hitler wrong, or is it all just an opinion and Hitler was just as right as anyone has ever been?
    To be objective, something must be universally understood as true. Though the majority of the population believes Hitler was evil and wrong, there are still those who praise his actions and visions. Therefore, it requires one to determine in ones own self whether or not Hitler was evil or good. Even though society condemns genocide and war objectively, there are still those who don't.

  4. #144
    Senior Member zago's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by entpersonal View Post
    You're not getting the parameters of this - nobody has ever been right or wrong because right and wrong don't exist IRL.
    Quote Originally Posted by entpersonal View Post
    Explain to me why this activity is "wrong" per se. What is a normal person exactly?
    Quote Originally Posted by Alea_iacta_est View Post
    To be objective, something must be universally understood as true. Though the majority of the population believes Hitler was evil and wrong, there are still those who praise his actions and visions. Therefore, it requires one to determine in ones own self whether or not Hitler was evil or good. Even though society condemns genocide and war objectively, there are still those who don't.
    So you wouldn't have taken a side in WWII?

  5. #145
    Senior Member Alea_iacta_est's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zago View Post
    So you wouldn't have taken a side in WWII?
    That's a faulty leap, no, I would have. But ultimately, it would be a subjective stance. There is no objective stance in morality and war.

    Objectivism is saying that 1 + 1 = 2, that a force exists that tethers us to Earth, and that the Western Roman Empire dissolved in 476 AD.

    Subjectivism is saying that 1 problem + 1 problem = 2 failures, that Gravity is the force that tethers us to Earth, and that the Western Roman Empire was entirely evil and deserved the Visigoths' wrath.

  6. #146
    Senior Member zago's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alea_iacta_est View Post
    That's a faulty leap, no, I would have. But ultimately, it would be a subjective stance. There is no objective stance in morality and war.
    Why would you take a subjective stance?

  7. #147
    Senior Member Alea_iacta_est's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zago View Post
    Why would you take a subjective stance?
    Because that's the only stance one can take. You act as if subjectivism is always disillusioned. Sometimes the individual's reasoning is better than the collective's ascertainment. Everyone always believes they are the good guy in the first person. It is only in the third person does someone become "bad".

  8. #148
    Senior Member zago's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alea_iacta_est View Post
    Because that's the only stance one can take. You act as if subjectivism is always disillusioned. Sometimes the individual's reasoning is better than the collective's ascertainment. Everyone always believes they are the good guy in the first person. It is only in the third person does someone become "bad".
    I'm not sure how this answers my question. That certainly isn't the only stance one can take. As Americans we pretty much had three options. Fight against Hitler, fight for him, or do nothing. So why would you fight against Hitler, given that it is not the only stance one can take?

  9. #149
    Senior Member Alea_iacta_est's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zago View Post
    I'm not sure how this answers my question. That certainly isn't the only stance one can take. As Americans we pretty much had three options. Fight against Hitler, fight for him, or do nothing. So why would you fight against Hitler, given that it is not the only stance one can take?
    Of course it isn't the only stance, but there is only one kind of stance that one can take and that is the subjective stance. Anything objective must be unanimous. In fact, since there is are 3 splits in your examples, that shows that all three of those are subjective stances, that there is no universal truth to any of them, nothing makes one more right (in a logical sense, not a moral sense) than the other.

    Objectively speaking, Hitler committed genocide and war crimes.

    Subjectively speaking, Hitler is a bad person and evil for committing genocide and war crimes.

    The difference is that objectivism can only deal with facts, while subjectivism can only deal with facts laced with opinion. Any appeal to Pathos (emotional and moral argument) is entirely subjective, while any appeal to Logos is usually objective.

  10. #150
    Senior Member zago's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alea_iacta_est View Post
    Of course it isn't the only stance, but there is only one kind of stance that one can take and that is the subjective stance. Anything objective must be unanimous. In fact, since there is are 3 splits in your examples, that shows that all three of those are subjective stances, that there is no universal truth to any of them, nothing makes one more right (in a logical sense, not a moral sense) than the other.

    Objectively speaking, Hitler committed genocide and war crimes.

    Subjectively speaking, Hitler is a bad person and evil for committing genocide and war crimes.

    The difference is that objectivism can only deal with facts, while subjectivism can only deal with facts laced with opinion. Any appeal to Pathos (emotional and moral argument) is entirely subjective, while any appeal to Logos is usually objective.
    You still are not answering my question. Why, subjectively, would you choose to fight against Hitler rather than fight for him or do nothing?

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