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  1. #131
    Senior Member zago's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by entpersonal View Post
    Again, there isn't any objective benchmark by which to deem anything wrong or right. It's one person's opinion against another person's opinion.
    Uhhhh... I explained that in my post. Why did you just single out one sentence?

  2. #132
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by entpersonal View Post
    Again, there isn't any objective benchmark by which to deem anything wrong or right. It's one person's opinion against another person's opinion.
    The world-wide objective benchmark is the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.

    The Universal Declaration of Human Rights (UDHR) is a declaration adopted by the United Nations General Assembly on 10 December 1948 at the Palais de Chaillot, Paris. The Declaration arose directly from the experience of the Second World War and represents the first global expression of rights to which all human beings are inherently entitled.

    I understand your country and mine helped draw up the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, signed it and ratified it. So we have a benchmark to which we can both refer.

  3. #133
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    Those who follow the shallow dictum, if it feels good, do it, naturally wish morality were subjective.

    This is called, wish fulfillment.

  4. #134
    Senior Member entpersonal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mole View Post
    The world-wide objective benchmark is the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.

    The Universal Declaration of Human Rights (UDHR) is a declaration adopted by the United Nations General Assembly on 10 December 1948 at the Palais de Chaillot, Paris. The Declaration arose directly from the experience of the Second World War and represents the first global expression of rights to which all human beings are inherently entitled.

    I understand your country and mine helped draw up the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, signed it and ratified it. So we have a benchmark to which we can both refer.
    That's already been violated nine ways to Sunday. Also, a bunch of people agreeing on something doesn't make it objectively valid. A lot of people thought the earth was flat at one point. That consensus didn't make it so.

  5. #135
    Senior Member zago's Avatar
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    I agree, the consensus isn't the grounds for objectivity. But there still is one. We can use data to see how well our actions work. Do they have the desired effect of increasing well-being, productivity, organization, etc.

  6. #136
    You have a choice! 21%'s Avatar
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    I believe morality is subjective. However, I also believe that we can find an objective agreement that will make the majority of humans happy because we are similarly wired to seek comfort, avoid pain, spread our genes, etc. 'Right' and 'wrong' are human concepts -- we created them. There are no universal rights or wrongs, but there might be something akin to 'universal human facts' -- for example, altruism is always a good thing for the survival of our species.
    4w5 sp/sx EII

  7. #137
    Senior Member entpersonal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zago View Post
    We can use data to see how well our actions work. Do they have the desired effect of increasing well-being, productivity, organization, etc.
    I don't see where this is going - heroin promotes "well-being" but is traditionally considered less than moral to use. Amphetamines increase productivity and likewise are seen as basically aberrant. Also, what promotes well-being in some may leave others indifferent. So, again, this is all inherently subjective.

  8. #138
    sswwwaagggg gmanyo's Avatar
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    morality is a subject
    Quote Originally Posted by Qlip View Post
    I'm starting to see you and your avatar as a cloud of odor that eminates from trashy threads.

  9. #139
    Senior Member zago's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by entpersonal View Post
    I don't see where this is going - heroin promotes "well-being" but is traditionally considered less than moral to use. Amphetamines increase productivity and likewise are seen as basically aberrant. Also, what promotes well-being in some may leave others indifferent. So, again, this is all inherently subjective.
    That is far from proving anything subjective.

    First, I have stated in previous posts which you apparently didn't read (the one you only quoted a single line from) that the prescription for morality for each person may differ. A dying person in pain may be right to take heroin or opiates of some sort. Someone in good health may not. You are failing to look at this situation with any degree of nuance and just saying "well it's not the same for everyone so there is no right and wrong!"

    You would not say that about the objective science of medicinal health. Just because I don't need chemotherapy right now and others do doesn't mean health is subjective.

    Heroin only promotes well being in the very short term. Obviously it is wrong to take heroin (and amphetamines, etc) if you're a normal person. However, if those things didn't have side effects that more than negate the benefits, it might be right to take them. Anti-depressants help millions. Presumably we will continue to improve our drugs and in the future may be able to raise our happiness to blissful levels and continue to take care of what needs to be taken care of in life. That is when taking them could cease to be wrong and become right.

    It's not hard to see. This is all very obvious, you just ignore my arguments for some reason, like creationists who ignore all the blinding evidence for evolution. My question, then, is why are you so opposed to morality being objective? I mean, you clearly want morality to be subjective. It's beyond you just thinking it is true that it is subjective.

  10. #140
    Senior Member zago's Avatar
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    I still want my Hitler argument addressed. You never really addressed it. Was Hitler wrong, or is it all just an opinion and Hitler was just as right as anyone has ever been?

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