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  1. #121
    Senior Member danseen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zago View Post
    1. If morals exist only for humans, they still exist.
    Morals don't exist.
    2. You misconceive morality. Above I compared a science of morality to a science of medicinal health. Not everyone needs the same interventions and prescriptions.
    Morality is made up by a given society/culture.
    Good result (vs. Soton)...still have to go #Arsene

    Tengo los conocimientos estardiar....no hay un motivo para estar al tanto de la reunión que sucedió hace mucho tiempo ....

  2. #122
    Senior Member entpersonal's Avatar
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    Morality is completely subjective and culturally dependent. People eat dogs in South Korea and that's generally frowned upon stateside.

  3. #123
    Senior Member zago's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by entpersonal View Post
    Morality is completely subjective and culturally dependent. People eat dogs in South Korea and that's generally frowned upon stateside.
    That doesn't prove anything. Circumstances affect the most moral decision to make at any given time. That doesn't mean it is subjective.

  4. #124
    Senior Member entpersonal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zago View Post
    That doesn't prove anything. Circumstances affect the most moral decision to make at any given time. That doesn't mean it is subjective.
    Yeah, if the ethical classification is determined by culture, and if the cultures differ on what's acceptable, that actually makes it subjective. It's certainly not divine intercession forcing South Koreans to eat dogs and Americans to forgo said activity.

  5. #125
    Senior Member zago's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by entpersonal View Post
    Yeah, if the ethical classification is determined by culture, and if the cultures differ on what's acceptable, that actually makes it subjective. It's certainly not divine intercession forcing South Koreans to eat dogs and Americans to forgo said activity.
    First, can we use a different example?

    People in Germany in 1945 murdered Jews, and that was generally frowned upon stateside.

    Ok, we're using that as the example now. Just 'cause.

    Now, you say if cultures differ on what's acceptable that makes it subjective. Not really. One culture can be right and the other can be wrong. One can be better than the other at morality. Also, how you yourself act depends on what circumstances you're in. Killing in war is not the same as killing in peace. Things may depend on circumstances, but that doesn't change the fact that there is an objective right and a wrong thing to do within them.

    I gotta go to bed. I don't want to, but I got to. Nighty night.

  6. #126
    Senior Member entpersonal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zago View Post
    Now, you say if cultures differ on what's acceptable that makes it subjective. Not really. One culture can be right and the other can be wrong. One can be better than the other at morality.
    There's no objective rubric by which to compare or call one side definitively wrong. It's just your opinion that one side was "better" than the other.

  7. #127
    Senior Member entpersonal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zago View Post
    First, can we use a different example?

    People in Germany in 1945 murdered Jews, and that was generally frowned upon stateside.

    Ok, we're using that as the example now. Just 'cause.
    The early 20th century US example of sterilizing low IQ folk actually informed part of Hitler's eugenics program.

  8. #128
    Senior Member zago's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by entpersonal View Post
    There's no objective rubric by which to compare or call one side definitively wrong. It's just your opinion that one side was "better" than the other.
    That we haven't found an objective rubric doesn't mean one doesn't exist. Objective science has always existed in its entirety, we just figure out more about it as we go.

    Let's say you're sitting next to Hitler staring at a 1-way glass wall that looks into a concentration camp's death chamber. You see about 50 emaciated, bald and naked women and children walk in and he explains to you that they think they are about to be be showered, but they are really about to be given zyclon B gas and killed. Sure enough, you watch in horror as this begins to happen and you watch these people die over the course of several minutes, many of them running around, screaming, choking, in agony, etc. It is a truly gruesome sight. Soon there are just a few twitches from the pile of corpses on the floor.

    What do you do? Do you calmly look over at Hitler and say, "wow, I am not used to a sight like this because my culture is so different, but I really have a lot of respect for how you guys do things over here." But thinking then of the families and loved ones who were just torn apart, you ask, "are you sure you really have to kill people like this though?"

    He replies, "hey, it's all just an opinion, remember. We are just the same as you, that is, without moral value whatsoever because it's all relative. Who would you be to say we are wrong for doing this? That would be your opinion."

    *

    And I'm not just trying to appeal to emotion here, but I think that story is important. There are possible rubrics that transcend culture, government, and religion. People's well-being can be measured many ways, just like their physical health can be measured many ways. There are actions that serve to increase the well-being of individuals, the community, and the world, and there are actions that make people suffer. The axiomatic foundation of objective morality is that suffering is bad and well-being is good. Those things can be measured.

    Quote Originally Posted by entpersonal View Post
    The early 20th century US example of sterilizing low IQ folk actually informed part of Hitler's eugenics program.
    If you're saying that Hitler and them really thought it was the best course of action based on the accepted beliefs of the time, that doesn't make it any more right. Wrong is wrong, whether or not you know you're doing it.

  9. #129
    Senior Member Zangetshumody's Avatar
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    my 2 cents:

    Morality isn't subjective because of the capacity for understanding. If you understand something you are subject to it, if you don't fully understand, or only understand a part of something it may be followed incorrectly (due to an imprinting one has fallen under), also if understanding cannot be fully illustrated for someone else to understand then authority will be resisted or overly relied on. Of course this also exists in a negative sense, i.e. a partial understanding (or an imprint thereof) can cause one to resist illustration of a complete understanding...
    Escape powerful genjitsu by averting your gaze from the eyes.

  10. #130
    Senior Member entpersonal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zago View Post
    Wrong is wrong, whether or not you know you're doing it.
    Again, there isn't any objective benchmark by which to deem anything wrong or right. It's one person's opinion against another person's opinion.

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