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  1. #11
    Senior Member Ene's Avatar
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    Why do you "set out to decompose their faith into a combination of variables that actually mediate the relationship, such as the placebo effect, priming, the Baader-Meinhof Phenomenon, confirmation bias, or what is essentially a set of idiosyncrasies of the mind"? I mean I wonder what your purpose might be in doing this? So, I'm asking you...to what end?


    To what end? I was just suggesting books that might aid you in your quandary.
    A student said to his master: "You teach me fighting, but you talk about peace. How do you reconcile the two?" The master replied: "It is better to be a warrior in a garden than to be a gardener in a war." - unknown/Chinese

    http://www.typologycentral.com/forum...=61024&page=14

  2. #12
    Senior Member Ene's Avatar
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    Why do you "set out to decompose their faith into a combination of variables that actually mediate the relationship, such as the placebo effect, priming, the Baader-Meinhof Phenomenon, confirmation bias, or what is essentially a set of idiosyncrasies of the mind"? I mean I wonder what your purpose might be in doing this? So, I'm asking you...to what end?


    To what end? I was just suggesting books that might aid you in your quandary.
    A student said to his master: "You teach me fighting, but you talk about peace. How do you reconcile the two?" The master replied: "It is better to be a warrior in a garden than to be a gardener in a war." - unknown/Chinese

    http://www.typologycentral.com/forum...=61024&page=14

  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ene View Post
    ...quandary...
    The quandary, for me, is understanding what mysticism is so I can decide whether or not we should eradicate it from society. And, assuming that we should, the question becomes how.

  4. #14
    Senior Member Ene's Avatar
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    What gives one group the right to decide to eradicate another's belief systems? Let's say you deemed mysticism unworthy of existence and defended your stance with logic and reasoning; still, you could not prove it has no right to exist.

    If you wish to eradicate it from your belief system, from you life, that is your humane right but to impose your will upon others by attempting to eradicate their belief system is inhumane and in a sense, it places you, at least in principle, on a throne above them, lording over them as it would equate to believing you more capable of deciding what they should believe than them.

    Please understand, I'm not defending mystism, but a wise NA once said when the U.S. government told the Native American Church they could no longer employ the use of Peyote in their rituals that if we take away the freedoms of one group to believe what they hold dear then we inherently erode the freedoms and rights of all groups. His argument was sound and the government backed down. I speak from the viewpoint of a people who have been told repeatedly that we had to change our ways, cut our hair, forget our languages and abandon our beliefs because they weren't "civilized" enough. Entire tribes have been "absorbed" and their beliefs "eradicated". Now, I constantly hear how science is the answer and I can't help but think [in a sarcastic way]...sure it is. Some people want to turn us all into carbon copies of themselves. They want to force mental compliance. It's a slippery slope when a small group starts deciding what belief systems need to be eradicated. My only purpose in responding to this thread is to employ you to reason from another perspective.

    Yes, some people believe some wild things, but it's not my place nor anyone else's to tell them they cannot hold onto their magic, their mysticism or their faith, if that's what they hold dear and so long as they're not committing a heinous crime by doing so.
    A student said to his master: "You teach me fighting, but you talk about peace. How do you reconcile the two?" The master replied: "It is better to be a warrior in a garden than to be a gardener in a war." - unknown/Chinese

    http://www.typologycentral.com/forum...=61024&page=14

  5. #15
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    I was born with the right to try to eradicate mysticism, just like mystics were born with the right to try to eradicate rational discourse, if they so choose.

    Practically speaking though I am more interested in identifying the long term outcome for humanity. Is mysticism going to exist in humanity's long term future? I am also interested in whether or not I should challenge mystics with reason. If it is equivalent to ignorance, and ignorance is bliss, does that bliss outweigh the integral of the joy of the scientific insights gained through a life of rational thought? And other complexities abound.

  6. #16
    Unapologetic being Evolving Transparency's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mingularity View Post
    The quandary, for me, is understanding what mysticism is so I can decide whether or not we should eradicate it from society. And, assuming that we should, the question becomes how.
    Which "mysticism" are you talking about?

    1.

    belief that union with or absorption into the Deity or the absolute, or the spiritual apprehension of knowledge inaccessible to the intellect, may be attained through contemplation and self-surrender.

    2.
    belief characterized by self-delusion or dreamy confusion of thought, esp. when based on the assumption of occult qualities or mysterious agencies.

    #1 or #2?

    Then we can proceed on the same page. Si vous plait?

  7. #17
    Senior Member Ene's Avatar
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    Yes, mystisim will exist in humanity's long term future.

    Humans are not always logical and it's illogical to expect them to base everything upon logic and reasoning and science. Only a portion of the population is predominantly that way.

    Go ahead. Challenge them with reason. Some will listen to you and may accept what you're saying. Others will just laugh at you and walk away. Some will argue with and some will get angry, not because they're mystics but because they're humans and that's the way humans behave. Unpredictably.


    One last thing, then I'll leave your thread alone [promise]....

    Isn't bliss another word for joy? So whether the joy comes through mystism or through science, does it really make a difference in the grand scheme of things?

    integral of the joy of the scientific insights gained through a life of rational thought?
    ...also, if a person is a true mystic they are going to say to you, "So you think I'd be happier if I thought just like you? Then is your life happier than mine?" They might look at you and say, "Prove it. Show me how you are happier and more at peace with your life than I am with mine and if you're not happy and more at peace, then why should I listen to you?"
    A student said to his master: "You teach me fighting, but you talk about peace. How do you reconcile the two?" The master replied: "It is better to be a warrior in a garden than to be a gardener in a war." - unknown/Chinese

    http://www.typologycentral.com/forum...=61024&page=14

  8. #18
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    Maybe we can equate science with determinism, and mysticism with contingency.

    Science operates with working predictions. Mysticism can't currently be mapped, if ever.

    Maybe some stuff could shift from science to mysticism, but unknowns still exist.

    Some of them may even defy the laws of existence altogether.

  9. #19
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    The sad little truth about mysticism is that it is based on trance.

    A trance can be induced by any repetition. The critical, rational part of our mind goes to sleep and we lose the ability to tell the difference between imagination and reality. And we become suggestible to any belief.

    We are entranced by art, music, ritual and religion.

    Religion or spirituality makes use of trance to control the minds and purses of the faithful.

  10. #20
    Post Human Post Qlip's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mole View Post
    The sad little truth about mysticism is that it is based on trance.

    A trance can be induced by any repetition. The critical, rational part of our mind goes to sleep and we lose the ability to tell the difference between imagination and reality. And we become suggestible to any belief.

    We are entranced by art, music, ritual and religion.

    Religion or spirituality makes use of trance to control the minds and purses of the faithful.
    Those who enter trance see the same things no matter their religious starting point. Mystic faiths have a tendency to converge, which is why mystic practices are often banned in differing religions.

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