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  1. #21
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zago View Post
    Well, I still believe you are having an unnecessarily strong reaction to this, but the answer is out in the open if you consider what an INTP is. Our extroverted feeling is not highly conscious and we know it (or at least feel the results of it), so we attempt to ramify the situation by learning how naturals do it. I see that as a good thing; should an INTP not focus on developing better people skills? Should we not try to make sense of the world?
    Unnecessary for whom?
    This argument doesn't fly, my Fe is non-existent, but something in me is repulsed by this kind of thing. I'm calling it Fi, you could call it a conscience, I suppose.

    I mean, sure, maybe if I were an ExFx or something, I wouldn't particularly feel a need to learn how to be more successful with people. Then again, I don't mind being who I am. As a wise man once said, "the enemy of the great is the good." Having known so intimately what it is like to be lost, it leads me to find maps that could in the end, with effort and slow, steady progress, elevate me even higher than those with natural ability.
    This is where you're going wrong (I think). You're trying to Ti your way to Fe. You can't do that. Developing your feeling side requires you to develop empathy. This kind of thing is just a handbook to sociopathy. Do you want to develop your social skills and understanding or do you just want to outsmart and exploit others? Which do you think will be more fulfilling in the long term?

  2. #22
    Senior Member zago's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by digesthisickness View Post
    Just because you interpret something she did as being similar to what one of those rules say doesn't mean she "used" it. Please stop saying that unless you can quote her saying she read a book.
    Whether or not she did so consciously, the principle is the same. Unless you're being ironic, in which case, lol.

  3. #23
    Senior Member zago's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    Unnecessary for whom?
    This argument doesn't fly, my Fe is non-existent, but something in me is repulsed by this kind of thing. I'm calling it Fi, you could call it a conscience, I suppose.
    You just seem upset, especially in your first few posts.
    What repulses people about this is merely the notion of dealing with people in a rational, calculating manner. People feel guilty about doing that for several reasons.

    First, it requires a bit of distance to detach yourself from your emotional reaction and instead select a rational option that is more effective. This often involves swallowing your pride, which, yes, people have an aversion to. You may have to do things that don't quite feel like "you." The question is, what is more important to you, an impulsive, moment by moment need to feel like yourself, or effectiveness? Personally, I'll take the latter.

    Second, people hate the idea that others are doing these sorts of things to them, and choose denial over acceptance and vulnerability.

    Third, people want to believe that they are always innocent and aren't just trying to get their way most of the time. If you really believe that about yourself, you might need a bit of an ego-check. It's OKAY to do what works with people, even if it isn't 100% heartfelt.

    This is where you're going wrong (I think). You're trying to Ti your way to Fe. You can't do that. Developing your feeling side requires you to develop empathy. This kind of thing is just a handbook to sociopathy. Do you want to develop your social skills and understanding or do you just want to outsmart and exploit others? Which do you think will be more fulfilling in the long term?
    Why can't I?
    ..I can. For many reasons. Did you know that forcing a smile actually makes you happier? Scientific fact. Regardless, Fe doesn't have to do with empathy, or, EFxJs can be just as mean as anyone else. It is more of a ... skill. You can absolutely learn about how to employ it, and get pretty far, too. Regardless of that, I am not going to sit around and wait for my empathy to develop, especially if I can't "Ti my way to" it. Sure, I don't mind outsmarting people. I'll be as kind as possible, but when it comes down to it, I will do what is in my interest to do. The only thing in my way most of the time is me.

  4. #24
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zago View Post
    You just seem upset, especially in your first few posts.
    Lol. No.
    What repulses people about this is merely the notion of dealing with people in a rational, calculating manner.
    No. It's the exploitative nature that is repulsive. See the Prisoner's dilemma. We're a social species hard-wired to cooperate and to punish those who refuse to do so.
    Sure, I don't mind outsmarting people. I'll be as kind as possible, but it comes down to it, I will do what is in my interest to do. The only thing in my way most of the time is me.
    Then you're still doing it wrong. If you are looking to prosper from the "secrets" of a book like this, the last thing you do is disclose your strategy to others. It will likely a) alienate people, and b) backfire when they use your tricks against you. Fail every which way.

    I guess bunnies are advised not to mess with snares.

  5. #25
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    They are not all bad, tbf. I know I would do well to apply rule #1, but simply cannot bring myself to do so.

  6. #26
    Senior Member zago's Avatar
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    Here's a great example that clarifies my previous post: Kanye West wants to marry Kim Kardashian, and without a prenup.

    Of course, all of us on the sidelines have no problem seeing the situation rationally. Dude is clearly a fool; she seems to have cast her spell yet again. This will almost certainly end in disaster, and quickly.

    It is incredibly hard for someone in love to make rational decisions about his partner. To him, what is right now is what will be forever, and to think otherwise would require him to distance himself from the love in order to realize, this might not last forever, she might fuck me over. Being realistic about people is definitely a letdown. Yes, we would love to live in a perfect world where no one will ever hurt us... but we don't, so we have to make some rational decisions sometimes.

    Just to say, again, that there is a reason this disgusts you, but it is not a good reason. Rather, it is something to overcome. Swallow the bitter pill, and you can move on in this slightly ugly world we live in.

  7. #27
    Senior Member zago's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    If you are looking to prosper from the "secrets" of a book like this, the last thing you do is disclose your strategy to others. It will likely a) alienate people, and b) backfire when they use your tricks against you.
    I realize that. In fact, I already mentioned that I violated this principle in post #4, but that time you disagreed. Truth be told, I realize I will never meet any of you, and I don't particularly care if I am hated here, so I feel free to talk about this. Not that talking about it is suicide, it's not necessarily, but I seldom if ever mention it IRL.

  8. #28
    royal member Rasofy's Avatar
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    Having read the book, and knowing a good part of your story, I really don't think you are in a position to benefit much from these rules - they will only lead you to more misery.

    Thing is, those rules will make you make you extra paranoid about people's intentions, and people tend not to trust the ones who don't trust them.

    You need to learn how to make genuine connections... Leil Lowndes has godd books on that. Carnegie's 'How to win friends' is a good classic as well.
    -----------------

    A man builds. A parasite asks 'Where is my share?'
    A man creates. A parasite says, 'What will the neighbors think?'
    A man invents. A parasite says, 'Watch out, or you might tread on the toes of God... '


    -----------------

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    Don't you have a moral core that instinctively finds this kind of thing repugnant?
    It's called good taste.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rasofy View Post
    Carnegie's 'How to win friends' is a good classic as well.
    "How to Make Friends and Influence People", by Dale Carnegie is a manual written for his salesmen, so they could make him even richer.

    This manual has nothing to do with making friends and everything to do with manipulating customers.

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