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Thread: What is faith?

  1. #31
    Senior Member Ene's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mingularity View Post
    Hence, I want you to try to prove to me that faith is justifiable, and I want to try to prove to you that it is not.
    Why?
    A student said to his master: "You teach me fighting, but you talk about peace. How do you reconcile the two?" The master replied: "It is better to be a warrior in a garden than to be a gardener in a war." - unknown/Chinese

    http://www.typologycentral.com/forum...=61024&page=14

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ene View Post
    Why?
    Quote Originally Posted by mingularity
    I am interested in being less wrong.
    .

  3. #33
    Senior Member Ene's Avatar
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    But why are you interested in being less wrong?

    Will it improve your life here on earth?

    Will it help you understand eternal things better?

    Why does it matter to you whether someone is able to prove the validity of faith?

    Will it change your view of humanity or divinity?

    Will it enhance your understanding of self?

    If someone were to prove this validity to you, how would that impact you?

    If you already know that it will not change you, then it is not worth the while to try to convince you of anything.

    Before I were to invest time and energy into such a lengthy topic as this would surely become, in the light of the fact that countless volumes have been written on this subject in the fields of religion and philosophy, I would need to have substantial reason. If proving the validity of faith would help you on your road to self-discovery, then I would endeavor to assist you, but if the purpose of the quest is to make those who possess faith look inferior, thereby stroking your ego, then I don't have time for that. I don't mean to be unkind. That isn't my intention, nor am I usually confrontational; however, I do sometimes question motives and quite frankly, I questioned your motive after your initial response to my definition.

    In addressing the assumption that some might make in regards to those who have faith, that we are without intelligence and that perhaps it is a wonder that we can speak or think, in all actuality, it doesn't make one less capable of thought, nor does it diminish one's intellect in any way when an individual chooses to consider faith a valid attribute of humanity, just as many believe hope, love, joy and good-will are valid attributes. Faith is essential to humanity, just as inspiration is essential to humanity. Without faith, the belief in those things we can't yet see, no one would dare to do what hasn't been done or try what hasn't been tried. Since the dawn of humanity, people have had faith in "something."
    A student said to his master: "You teach me fighting, but you talk about peace. How do you reconcile the two?" The master replied: "It is better to be a warrior in a garden than to be a gardener in a war." - unknown/Chinese

    http://www.typologycentral.com/forum...=61024&page=14

  4. #34
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    They say that faith is believing something we know isn't true.

    And quite often we are told to have faith by the very people who betray faith.

    And usually we are told to have faith by those who want to have power over us.

    Faith is the siren song of power.

  5. #35
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mingularity View Post
    I think that when you add foundation it is no longer faith. It is evidence-based belief, which is rational.

    Faith is irrational.
    Most of what the world calls faith then fails to meet your definition. Every religion has its holy books, sermons, saints and prophets, dogma and mythos. You cannot even supply a specific X in the statement, "I have faith in X" without some foundation for doing so. Otherwise you have the meaningless statement: "I have faith."

    Quote Originally Posted by mingularity View Post
    I am now interested in the difference between faith and hope.
    Hope: you think it is possible
    Faith: you think it is likely or even certain

    Quote Originally Posted by Mole View Post
    They say that faith is believing something we know isn't true.

    And quite often we are told to have faith by the very people who betray faith.

    And usually we are told to have faith by those who want to have power over us.

    Faith is the siren song of power.
    Who are "they" in the highlighted? I cannot believe something I know to be untrue. I do believe some things without definitive proof that they are true. The difference lies in what Mingularity called foundation. As for the rest, that is certainly true. Faith is a powerful tool in the hands of the unscrupulous.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  6. #36
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    There is faith based medicine and there is evidence based medicine.

    Almost all go to a doctor trained in evidence based medicine, and almost no one goes to a faith healer.

  7. #37
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mole View Post
    There is faith based medicine and there is evidence based medicine.

    Almost all go to a doctor trained in evidence based medicine, and almost no one goes to a faith healer.
    Faith-based medicine it not medicine, just wishful thinking. On the other hand, most people won't go to a physician in whom they have no faith.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  8. #38
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    Love is the one force. – Everything is part of love, which makes things possible.
    Belief is at the center of our being. – This force (love) can give us anything and point the way to everything.
    We need a focus on hope. – We must know why we want things to be and have an outline with the steps of action to realize the plan.

  9. #39
    Member Ojian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ene View Post
    Faith is the assurance [the confirmation] of things we hope for, the proof of what we have not seen and the steadfast conviction of their reality before it is manifested in the physical realm [faith perceives as real fact what cannot yet be perceived by the senses.] Faith is illogical. Yet, it works to those who believe. Without faith, it is impossible to attain spirituality and since faith is the substance of hope, it is impossible to hope without faith of some sort. Faith works by love and therefore, love is the ultimate expression of faith.
    If you have the "assurance [the confirmation]" and "the proof", then why would it be "illogical"?

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    Most of what the world calls faith then fails to meet your definition. Every religion has its holy books, sermons, saints and prophets, dogma and mythos. You cannot even supply a specific X in the statement, "I have faith in X" without some foundation for doing so. Otherwise you have the meaningless statement: "I have faith."
    A holy book does not constitute a foundation, but evidence does. Here, read this book I found. The book is interesting, by why should I believe it? Because the book says you should.

    That is, indeed, meaningless. It is a dopamine reservoir with a positive feedback loop.

    Many people in this thread are getting lost when discussing faith. They try to save it by equating faith with belief. You can escape this trap by updating your beliefs in accordance with the prior evidence. In this case if you have no evidence, your belief is zero, whereas if you have some evidence then you start to have beliefs. And now you can see that faith is required when there is no evidence.

    Trying to rescue faith using semantic word games is to fall right into its positive feedback loop trap.

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