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  1. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by 21% View Post
    There is value in everything, dear Victor, if you know where to look.
    Where is the value in little children who are molested, or raped, or turned into sex slaves?

  2. #72
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    Btw, just ftr, ITT the dominant postmodern cultural paradigm is attacked, and its proponents (aka the sheep) rush to defend it.

  3. #73
    until you're fully grown Holy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    Where is the value in little children who are molested, or raped, or turned into sex slaves?
    Aren't you the same poster who insisted that bringing Hitler into the argument was pointless?
    This argument is somehow different because...?
    Anyway, people can grow from experiences whether they are positive or negative
    Also, are you implying that those who embrace high culture have never once stepped outside the bounds of morality and law?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    Btw, just ftr, ITT the dominant postmodern cultural paradigm is attacked, and its proponents (aka the sheep) rush to defend it.
    You've been attacking people for responding emotionally and then you became the pot calling the kettle black.
    A person who seems to pride themselves on being logical, but only seems to think in black and white terms...
    It must be very comforting for you
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  4. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by Holy View Post
    Aren't you the same poster who insisted that bringing Hitler into the argument was pointless?
    Hitler and the Nazis, yes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Holy View Post
    This argument is somehow different because...?
    Because it actually deals with what she claimed.

    The OP did not claim that High Culture will make all people into empathetic pacifists, no matter what, including Hitler and the SS. It claimed that High Culture tends, on the whole, to increase empathy, social perception, and emotional intelligence.

    Granted, I knew that, by extension, the implicit comparison of Low Culture to molestation, rape, and selling of children into sex slavery was excessive, but the comparison was not explicit, and, if I wanted to take one step down and further, into comparing (some) Low Culture to sexually exploiting and essentially pimping our (particularly female) children, then all of a sudden the implicit comparison does not sound so absurd. / Zarathustra

    Quote Originally Posted by Holy View Post
    Anyway, people can grow from experiences whether they are positive or negative
    Did anyone say anything different?

    Still, that doesn't mean we should turn all our art into shit just so people can learn from how awful it is.

    Quote Originally Posted by Holy View Post
    Also, are you implying that those who are embrace high culture have never once step outside the bounds of morality and law?
    No.

    And I never said anything close to that.

    So if you're gunna come in here trying to claim hypocrisy on my part, why go and explicitly engage in it yourself?

    Quote Originally Posted by Holy View Post
    You've been attacking people for responding emotionally...
    Actually, that's not what I've been doing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Holy View Post
    ...and then you became the pot calling the kettle black.
    Wrong again.

    Quote Originally Posted by Holy View Post
    A person who seems to pride themselves on being logical, but only seems to think in black and white terms...
    What a boring thought process you have
    Clearly, you have no idea what the fuck you're talking about.

    Try having a clue before you shoot off from the mouth.

  5. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by msg_v2 View Post
    Yeah.... I don't think that everything I do or say is logical, but I care about it being logical. Is that what you're getting at? I want to dig at things and uncover the truth of them. It doesn't mean I'm never full of shit, just that not being full of shit tend to be important to me. Of course, you can't always tell when you are full of shit.
    The last part is pretty important at what I was getting at. I do think Te types are the most fearful of being "correct", to the point of extending their beliefs onto others, "speaking for the pack" as Jung put it. Undoubtedly the trait would spill over to some degree on its introverted variant, but Ti is a lot more comfortable with subjective extensions of logic.

    To comment on the OP, I think works we consider intellectual, or offer a form of guidance, are fervently explicit in their direction. Popular culture is more implicit, with scenarios that could be lost on those without sight. This could produce a substantive enough variance to turn up in study, perhaps. I relay a lot of literature as an extension of accumulated experience. Some wise words in the Dhammapada, "Mind precedes all mental states." Literature is undoubtedly a key mind-expanding utility, for better or worse.

  6. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mole View Post
    It certainly does.

    High culture serves as a barrier to the illiterate, to those who prey on the vulnerable, to those ignorant of history, to revolutionaries, to those who want to tear down everything that is good, to those who reject evidence and reason, freedom and equality, to those who reject empathy and creativity, to those who reject the humanism of the Rennaisance.

    High culture is a barrier to barbarism.
    I would argue that it is a barrier to the untalented, and that as long as one can mask their more base instincts, it will accept those with all different kinds moral inclinations.

  7. #77
    until you're fully grown Holy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    Hitler and the Nazis, yes. Because it actually deals with what she claimed.
    The OP did not claim that High Culture will make all people into empathetic pacifists, no matter what, including Hitler and the SS. It claimed that High Culture tends, on the whole, to increase empathy, social perception, and emotional intelligence.
    I'll ask again, who are the ones who decide what 'high' and 'low' culture are?

    Granted, I knew that, by extension, the implicit comparison of Low Culture to molestation, rape, and selling of children into sex slavery was excessive, but the comparison was not explicit, and, if I wanted to take one step down and further, into comparing (some) Low Culture to sexually exploiting and essentially pimping our (particularly female) children, then all of a sudden the implicit comparison does not sound so absurd.
    Because clearly, that could only happen when those pesky lessers are involved.

    This can be perpetuated by either side is what I'm saying.
    Some people consider Vladimir Nobokov's novel Lolita to be a fine piece of literature.
    Personally, I found it to be more than a little disturbing and pretty damn disgusting.

    Still, that doesn't mean we should turn all our art into shit just so people can learn from how awful it is.
    Again, my OP addressed this line of thinking. What is 'high' culture? Does 'low' culture equate to 'easily accessible'?
    Does 'high' culture equate and appeal to laughably pretentious individuals? Something that is easy for a larger margin of people to relate to doesn't necessarily mean that it's bad.

    No. And I never said anything close to that.
    I would think...that a highly cultured member of society such as yourself would know the definition of 'implied'.

    Actually, that's not what I've been doing.
    Purporting elitism may be closer to what you've actually been doing.

    Clearly, you have no idea what you're talking about.

    Try having a clue before shooting off from the mouth.
    'Something I won't even bother to think about must be wrong so you should shut up'.
    What a big baby.

    increases empathy, social perception, and emotional intelligence.
    Clearly
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  8. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by Holy View Post
    I'll ask again, who are the ones who decide what 'high' and 'low' culture are?
    The opinion makers of the day of course. The NYT editorial board members for example.

    Although, more than actually decide what High culture actually is, they mostly continue to agree that what it was in the past (i.e. "reading the classics, traveling to Europe, understanding politics etc...") it still is in the present.

  9. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by Holy View Post
    I'll ask again, who are the ones who decide what 'high' and 'low' culture are?
    First off, d***e, you never asked me this.

    Second, try dealing with the actual points your interlocutor makes, especially when they've directly answered the question you've asked. All you've done is go off on a new tangent, pretending as if you had asked me something before, even though it has nothing to do with the previous question asked, and the answer given (hints of Ne user: probably INFP [INFx seemed rather obvious from the start]).

    But, to answer your question: those who have the knowledge to do so.

    Quote Originally Posted by Holy View Post
    Because clearly, that could only happen when those pesky lessers are involved.
    Apparently you missed all those times where I said that I partake in both low and high culture readily.

    Try opening your eyes before, once again, you shoot your mouth off.

    Quote Originally Posted by Holy View Post
    This can be perpetuated by either side is what I'm saying.
    If you compare our current dominant low culture with the canon of high culture, there is far more exploitation of children's sexuality going on in low culture than there is in the canon of high culture. There is a semi-interesting discussion to be had here, but you're so missing the proper degree of proportionality to each side that you've rendered such a discussion useless.

    Quote Originally Posted by Holy View Post
    Some people consider Vladimir Nobokov's novel Lolita to be a fine piece of literature.
    Personally, I found it to be more than a little disturbing and pretty damn disgusting.
    That is one interesting piece where an interesting debate could be had.

    But, considering that is one book, amongst hundreds or thousands that would properly be considered high culture, 99% of which would yield no such difficult a debate, it would be myopic to focus too intently on Lolita and thus completely miss the forest for one tree.

    Quote Originally Posted by Holy View Post
    Again, my OP addressed this line of thinking.



    [emphasis yours]
    I'm sorry, I don't recall responding to you, nor knowing or caring who you are.

    Quote Originally Posted by Holy View Post
    What is 'high' culture?
    A very worthwhile topic of discussion.

    Perhaps you should just read the post above that already addressed this topic:
    http://www.typologycentral.com/forum...=1#post2153478

    Quote Originally Posted by Holy View Post
    Does 'low' culture equate to 'easily accessible'?
    No, probably not.

    There is plenty of not-easily-accessible low culture.

    Quote Originally Posted by Holy View Post
    Does 'high' culture equate and appeal to laughably pretentious individuals?
    Regarding the former, I doubt culture "equates" to people.

    And regarding the latter, I don't know, do you like high culture, "Mr. PURE Type"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Holy View Post
    I would think...that a highly cultured member of society such as yourself would know the definition of 'implied'.
    Well, I am not surprised that a lowly cultured member of society such as yourself would not know the definition of "projection".

    Quote Originally Posted by Holy View Post
    Purporting elitism may be closer to what you've actually been doing.
    Once again, projection.

    And if you expect to get any kind of response from now on, do not selectively respond to what I write. Respond to every part of it. I understand that your entire posting style thus far has been an exercise in not reading, misreading, and reading into what was written what was not actually there, but maybe having to actually deal with each word written would help stop you from doing so.

    (wishful thinking, I know, considering the extent of the problems displayed, but we may hope...)

    Quote Originally Posted by Holy View Post
    'Something I won't even bother to think about must be wrong so you should shut up'.
    What a big baby.
    Actually, you have no idea what the fuck I have or have not thought about.

    As it stands, you sound like another typical piece of Eurotrash who comes here thinking they know all about what they're talking about, when really they're just another prototypical postmodernist who doesn't have a clue.

    Try being around here for more than a day or two, with 4 posts, before thinking you know who the fuck people are and what they're about.

    If anyone's a baby around here, it's you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Holy View Post
    Clearly
    Ouch.

    You really got me there, bub.

  10. #80
    until you're fully grown Holy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    The opinion makers of the day of course. The NYT editorial board members for example.

    Although, more than actually decide what High culture actually is, they mostly continue to agree that what it was in the past (i.e. "reading the classics, traveling to Europe, understanding politics etc...") it still is in the present.
    Thanks. I wanted a clear cut example. It's not the idea of 'high' culture that I disagree with, but the implications. I think the principles of the people that perpetuate a culture a much more telling than the culture itself. Discernment and elitism are not the same thing.

    As a side note, your icon is amazingly distracting.
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