User Tag List

First 45678 Last

Results 51 to 60 of 137

  1. #51
    Theta Male Julius_Van_Der_Beak's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    MBTI
    PORG
    Enneagram
    5w6 sp/so
    Socionics
    LII None
    Posts
    9,055

    Default

    I don't know enough to know why the Renaissance happened, but I don't think the Renaissance happening was enough to give people more empathy. The toppling of feudalistic structures... it might be possible that this was enabled by the writings of philosophers, but I doubt the philosophers would have been that effective at reaching more middle class folks without the invention of Mole's favorite invention, the printing press.

    I don't think feudalism ended because artists started making more realistic paintings and sculptures or anything.
    [Trump's] rhetoric is not an abuse of power. In the same way that it's also not against the law to do a backflip off of the roof of your house onto your concrete driveway. It's just mind-numbingly stupid and, to say the least, counterproductive. - Bush did 9-11


    This is not going to go the way you think....

    Visit my Johari:
    http://kevan.org/johari?name=Birddude78

  2. #52
    Theta Male Julius_Van_Der_Beak's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    MBTI
    PORG
    Enneagram
    5w6 sp/so
    Socionics
    LII None
    Posts
    9,055

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    No ones arguing that, but in your estimation what is the purpose of high culture?
    Probably the same thing as low culture, it's just that one has stood the test of time. It's an expression of feelings and ideas, the creation or re-creation of things.... I don't know enough about aesthetic philosophy to have too much of an opinion.

    The purpose, at any rate, is less relevant to this topic than the effect. And I'm not sure that classial music or visual arts do that much to improve empathy or social skills. If the argument was that they sharpened sensory perceptions, I could buy that.

    A piece of lyric-less music can stir a feeling, but everyone has feelings. The existence of feelings is not the same as empathy or social skills.

    Hmm... it might be possible that contemporary music might do a better job at empathy (since it is narrative) than classical music. If someone were to do a study and find this, it would turn the entire idea of the value of "low culture" vs. "high culture" on it's head.
    [Trump's] rhetoric is not an abuse of power. In the same way that it's also not against the law to do a backflip off of the roof of your house onto your concrete driveway. It's just mind-numbingly stupid and, to say the least, counterproductive. - Bush did 9-11


    This is not going to go the way you think....

    Visit my Johari:
    http://kevan.org/johari?name=Birddude78

  3. #53
    Tempbanned
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    MBTI
    INTJ
    Enneagram
    6w5 sx/so
    Posts
    8,161

    Default

    ^ and still, they manage to completely miss the point

    arguing not what has actually been said, but against stupid straw men they constantly prop up in their minds just to knock down

    ETA: nice edits since I posted this. such a ****.

  4. #54
    Senior Member Forever_Jung's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Enneagram
    6
    Posts
    2,340

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by msg_v2 View Post
    Yes... I actually can see how literature, especially stuff that's more character-focused and less plot-focused, would help with empathy/social skills. To some extent, I've benefited from it. Film could potentially do the same thing, or TV. I think the important thing is that these are all narrative.
    Fo sho, I think narrative and complexity of character are key. I don't think the medium is that important.

    I'm not convinced that visual arts or classical music (seeing as how it is either without words or in a language most peole don't understand) would help. Certainly, it is capable of stirring things emotionally. But what could it possibly teach you about interacting with someone else? How does a Hudson River School painting (look it up), for instance, teach someone social skills or empathy? Maybe it teaches them about appreciating nature, though.
    I'm not convinced either, and certainly didn't make that claim. I don't know enough about other domains of the cultural world to speak for its benefits.

    If I found some other dictator, would that help?
    Well, that wouldn't fix the whole problem, but it certainly would make the matter seem less tiresome.

    Why is it "relevant" that the guy who shot up The Dark Knight Rises was studying neuroscience but not "relevant" that Hitler liked painting and classical music? Or, to bring a more recent less interent meme-worthy example, why is it not "relevant" that the perpetrator of the Virginia Tech shootings was an English major?
    I don't know a whole lot about that Dark Knight shooting incident, since it wasn't as big of a deal where I live, but I myself never claimed this fellow's educational background was relevant. Are you having some argument about the media misrepresenting the sciences as harmful to a person's character (just a guess)? Could you explain why the dark knight shooter matters here? I feel like you're bringing outside baggage into this discussion. These weren't points raised in this thread, were they? Sorry to make you explain, I just can't see it.

    What do Hitler's cultural inclinations prove? Surely you don't think high culture caused the holocaust? No, of course you don't. Are you saying that Hitler's lack of empathy for the Jews, despite his reading habits, is demonstrative that literary fiction doesn't help people be empathetic?

    If so let me remind you that the study claims that literary fiction stimulates empathy in people (at least in the short term). This is a rather modest claim. The study doesn't claim that people who read literary fiction are very empathetic and those who read popular fiction aren't. It definitely doesn't claim that literary fiction has the ability to completely rehabilitate the emotional life of monstrous human beings. It just says that it gives people practice being empathetic, which MIGHT help them be more empathetic in their daily lives.

    Besides, Hitler didn't necessarily lack empathy. I think Hitler demonstrated a very deep understanding of how many people felt and thought in his home country. You can be good at empathizing, but choose not to engage these powers with certain groups of people.

  5. #55
    Senior Member Pseudo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    MBTI
    INTP
    Enneagram
    5w4 so/sx
    Posts
    2,051

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    No ones arguing that, but in your estimation what is the purpose of high culture?
    Art, high or low, is about communicating ideas visually. Those ideas can be as varied as there are human perspectives. An example would be say "the birth of Venus" and "Olympia". Both female nudes, but one is a romantic showcasing of feminine desirability while the other has a woman confronting the viewer (a would be John). They aren't designed to give you the same feelings. And I don't think empathy or social skills are the purpose of either one.

    Most of albrecht durera work is just about how awesome he is, Albers is about color relationships, Money is about perception, hand bulding green love witches. Sure some artist want you to be empathetic. Goya's "horrors of war", "guernica". But it's not the aim of all paitings and I don't think it's the result of all paintings.

    I'm not as verses in literature but I know Charles Dicksion created "monster-Jew" character Fagin. So just in this way he was not interested in supporting empathy towards the Jews, though he was toward orphans.

  6. #56
    Tempbanned
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Enneagram
    8w9
    Posts
    14,031

    Default

    High culture serves as a barrier to entry.

  7. #57
    my floof is luxury Wind Up Rex's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    MBTI
    ENTJ
    Enneagram
    853 sx/sp
    Posts
    4,981

    Default

    What are we even arguing about here?
    And so long as you haven’t experienced this: to die and so to grow,
    you are only a troubled guest on the dark earth

  8. #58
    Theta Male Julius_Van_Der_Beak's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    MBTI
    PORG
    Enneagram
    5w6 sp/so
    Socionics
    LII None
    Posts
    9,055

    Default

    Do I think that the results of the study cited are worthless? No.

    I think the conclusions Mole drew from it are bunk, though.

    Anyway, I don't need to read classic literature. Most of it has been adapted into the electronic mediums of film and television, so I can just watch those. Why experience something through an egoistic medium like books when I can watched it through a shared communal tribal medium like film or tv?
    [Trump's] rhetoric is not an abuse of power. In the same way that it's also not against the law to do a backflip off of the roof of your house onto your concrete driveway. It's just mind-numbingly stupid and, to say the least, counterproductive. - Bush did 9-11


    This is not going to go the way you think....

    Visit my Johari:
    http://kevan.org/johari?name=Birddude78

  9. #59
    Theta Male Julius_Van_Der_Beak's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    MBTI
    PORG
    Enneagram
    5w6 sp/so
    Socionics
    LII None
    Posts
    9,055

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Forever_Jung View Post
    Fo sho, I think narrative and complexity of character are key. I don't think the medium is that important.
    Shhh... Mole is listening. He's going to bust out McLuhan on you if you're not careful.

    I'm not convinced either, and certainly didn't make that claim. I don't know enough about other domains of the cultural world to speak for its benefits.
    No.. I was addressing the OP's point, and relating your post to that. It was actually thought provoking. Truth.




    I don't know a whole lot about that Dark Knight shooting incident, since it wasn't as big of a deal where I live, but I myself never claimed this fellow's educational background was relevant.
    You are correct. My apologies.

    Are you having some argument about the media misrepresenting the sciences as harmful to a person's character (just a guess)? Could you explain why the dark knight shooter matters here?
    Some people, not just the media, make that claim. I had erroneously assumed that you were one of those people.

    I feel like you're bringing outside baggage into this discussion. These weren't points raised in this thread, were they? Sorry to make you explain, I just can't see it.
    No, they were not. But a significant portion of people do believe that, which made me want to bring it up, in additon to my assumption.

    What do Hitler's cultural inclinations prove? Surely you don't think high culture caused the holocaust? No, of course you don't.
    No, but I'm suspicious of the belief that high culture (which the OP, not you, claimed help people become empathetic) makes someone more empathetic. I don't think it makes people less empathetic, either. If the OP was only referring to literature, which the study limited itself to, I might not even be arguing at all.

    Are you saying that Hitler's lack of empathy for the Jews, despite his reading habits, is demonstrative that literary fiction doesn't help people be empathetic?
    I don't know to what extent Hitler, if at all, pursued literature. I do know that he was interested in the visual arts and classical music.

    If so let me remind you that the study claims that literary fiction stimulates empathy in people (at least in the short term). This is a rather modest claim. The study doesn't claim that people who read literary fiction are very empathetic and those who read popular fiction aren't. It definitely doesn't claim that literary fiction has the ability to completely rehabilitate the emotional life of monstrous human beings. It just says that it gives people practice being empathetic, which MIGHT help them be more empathetic in their daily lives.
    Again, there's a difference between what the study claims, and what the OP claims. I don't disagree with the study. I disagree with the conclusions the OP drew from it.

    Besides, Hitler didn't necessarily lack empathy. I think Hitler demonstrated a very deep understanding of how many people felt and thought in his home country. You can be good at empathizing, but choose not to engage these powers with certain groups of people.
    Also true.
    [Trump's] rhetoric is not an abuse of power. In the same way that it's also not against the law to do a backflip off of the roof of your house onto your concrete driveway. It's just mind-numbingly stupid and, to say the least, counterproductive. - Bush did 9-11


    This is not going to go the way you think....

    Visit my Johari:
    http://kevan.org/johari?name=Birddude78

  10. #60
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Posts
    18,540
    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    I don't know. I'm not terribly educated. I have a two year degree in general studies from a rural community college. So basically, all high culture means to me is that it's old. But surely not everything that is old is high culture? So that is why I asked. I looked and couldn't find anything specific.
    I was lucky. I was introduced to high culture by someone who loved me, my father.

    High culture has given me good taste. This has proved invaluable as it enables me to distinguish a good environment from a bad environment.

    And I need this because I tend to be an idealist and so can easily go where angels fear to tread. But if my good taste tells me something is toxic, I tend to avoid it.

    But most of all, high culture is valuable in itself. It may have positive spinoffs, like empathy, social perception, emotional intelligence, and good taste, but high culture appeals to the best in us, so high culture is worthwhile for its own sake.

Similar Threads

  1. Fe and Popularity
    By proteanmix in forum Myers-Briggs and Jungian Cognitive Functions
    Replies: 63
    Last Post: 04-10-2017, 07:30 AM
  2. Replies: 6
    Last Post: 01-06-2015, 06:37 PM
  3. High Culture
    By Mole in forum Philosophy and Spirituality
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 11-22-2008, 02:37 AM
  4. High T and emotions of other people.
    By Virtual ghost in forum General Psychology
    Replies: 15
    Last Post: 09-21-2008, 08:12 PM
  5. ExFP with high N and S, possible?
    By Clownmaster in forum General Psychology
    Replies: 7
    Last Post: 09-20-2008, 04:09 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO