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  1. #121
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackmail! View Post
    High culture deals with meaning, uniqueness and individual freedom first, while popular culture deals with Entertainment first, how to please the masses, how to flatter and control them. "Low" culture can be compared to a selling show, to advertisement: the inner mechanisms are the same.

    It's only marketing and business. And Totalitarian states exploited the same tools, while in the same time they were denying any sense of meaning, uniqueness, and individual freedom.
    It's interesting that totalitarian States and consumer States use the same methods. Except totalitarian States make high culture illegal, while consumer States make high culture invisible.

    And consumer States go further and make low culture cool.

    And if we want to belong, we need to be cool, with cool brands, cool attitudes, and cool friends.

  2. #122
    Theta Male Julius_Van_Der_Beak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    Then you fundamentally misunderstand high culture.
    I suppose that I do, but if people have difficulty formulating a good definition, that's not all my fault.

    Doesn't matter. People aren't going to create a revolution by putting vulvas on anthills, whatever they may think. It can be interesting, sure, but revolutionary?
    [Trump's] rhetoric is not an abuse of power. In the same way that it's also not against the law to do a backflip off of the roof of your house onto your concrete driveway. It's just mind-numbingly stupid and, to say the least, counterproductive. - Bush did 9-11


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  3. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by msg_v2 View Post
    I suppose that I do, but if people have difficulty formulating a good definition, that's not all my fault.
    I would absolutely include say "There Will Be Blood", and "Eye's Wide Shut" (2001 etc...) in what is commonly considered high culture.

  4. #124
    Senior Member Pseudo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by msg_v2 View Post
    I suppose that I do, but if people have difficulty formulating a good definition, that's not all my fault.

    Doesn't matter. People aren't going to create a revolution by putting vulvas on anthills, whatever they may think. It can be interesting, sure, but revolutionary?
    A lot of avante garde work is not necessarily about the final product as it is the art making process. For instance the dada's use of collage mirrored the increasing industrialized world, painters in the fifties tried to emphasize the work of art and an object, surrealist were very into the subconscious, conceptual art tries to find to root of what actually qualifies as art or an artist. And sometimes it just about challenging our conceptions of appropriateness and what qualifies as high culture.

  5. #125
    Theta Male Julius_Van_Der_Beak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pseudo View Post
    A lot of avante garde work is not necessarily about the final product as it is the art making process. For instance the dada's use of collage mirrored the increasing industrialized world, painters in the fifties tried to emphasize the work of art and an object, surrealist were very into the subconscious, conceptual art tries to find to root of what actually qualifies as art or an artist. And sometimes it just about challenging our conceptions of appropriateness and what qualifies as high culture.
    Like Marcel Duchamp's Fountain? Was that just a joke, or was there more than that? A reflection that realism is no longer a worthy subject for art in an industrialized world where images are all reproducible anyway? That there are mundane items all around us that are worthy of looking more closely at?
    [Trump's] rhetoric is not an abuse of power. In the same way that it's also not against the law to do a backflip off of the roof of your house onto your concrete driveway. It's just mind-numbingly stupid and, to say the least, counterproductive. - Bush did 9-11


    This is not going to go the way you think....

    Visit my Johari:
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  6. #126
    Senior Member Pseudo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by msg_v2 View Post
    Like Marcel Duchamp's Fountain? Was that just a joke, or was there more than that?
    The fountain, and the other "ready-made" works question what it takes to classify something as a work of art. Duchamps claim is that it only takes his naming it art, signing it as a work, to change to object from just a random object to a work of art. And it works! people suddenly give this object which they would otherwise overlook, their attention. SImply because he has signed it and placed it within the space where we view art.

    He's considered a beginner of conceptual art because its not about craft or technique it is pure conceptual thought. A key question in conceptual art is what is art about? Creating a beautiful object or communicating an idea?

  7. #127
    You have a choice! 21%'s Avatar
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    I don't blame people for enjoying what you call "low culture" -- because it's not their fault. They should not be judged simply because they lack the opportunity to access high culture. I believe what they experience from "low culture" is not any less real than what can be experienced from high culture. If you are a teenager having just experienced your first heartbreak and a particular pop song strikes you as something real and beautiful, I do not doubt that your feeling is real and therefore is of sublime value. If you are sitting in a nightclub and the dance music suddenly paints for you a mental picture of a wild, destructive landscape of the near future and fills you with anxiety, I don't question if that experience is any less valid that what you can experience from, say, the works of Stravinsky.

    I think what we need to do as a society is to offer people awareness and choice. The real problem, I think, is not one of taste, but the mentality behind it. I feel that labeling something 'high' and 'low' doesn't help and only serves only to make privileged people feel good about themselves and bar even more people from experiencing different kinds of art.
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  8. #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by 21% View Post
    I don't blame people for enjoying what you call "low culture" -- because it's not their fault. They should not be judged simply because they lack the opportunity to access high culture. I believe what they experience from "low culture" is not any less real than what can be experienced from high culture. If you are a teenager having just experienced your first heartbreak and a particular pop song strikes you as something real and beautiful, I do not doubt that your feeling is real and therefore is of sublime value. If you are sitting in a nightclub and the dance music suddenly paints for you a mental picture of a wild, destructive landscape of the near future and fills you with anxiety, I don't question if that experience is any less valid that what you can experience from, say, the works of Stravinsky.

    I think what we need to do as a society is to offer people awareness and choice. The real problem, I think, is not one of taste, but the mentality behind it. I feel that labeling something 'high' and 'low' doesn't help and only serves only to make privileged people feel good about themselves and bar even more people from experiencing different kinds of art.
    The West is based on freedom and equality. And as power tends to corrupt and absolute power corrupts absolutely, so we limit power.

    So absolute freedom corrupts absolutely and absolute equality corrupts absolutely, so we limit freedom with equality, and we limit equality with freedom. So freedom and equality are in a dynamic feedback loop.

    Unfortunately overweening equality seeks to level everything even art. But freedom gives us different quality in art and science, which we call high and low culture.

    It just turns out that under conditions of freedom we produce quality art and science on one hand, and entertainment on the other - high and low culture.

  9. #129
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    @Mole I think we might be talking about different things, but I think you know where I'm coming from and I know where you're coming from and we might not even be in disagreement, so I'll leave it at that.

    Out of curiosity, in your opinion, is 'popular culture' from the past, say, the 18th century, considered 'high culture' of today? What about medieval folk music (that was considered 'popular culture' back then as opposed to 'high culture' church music)? There was a certain point in time where all 'novels' were considered simply 'entertainment' and therefore 'low culture', which is not true nowadays where some novels are regarded as great works of art and therefore high culture.
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  10. #130
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mole View Post
    As you have been reading the latest journal of, Science, you have probably come across a study conducted by social psychologists at the New School for Social Research in New York City.

    The study found that high culture increased empathy, social perception, and emotional intelligence, while popular culture failed on all counts. [...]
    I found an in-depth description of the study in question. The subjects read a few passages from various books for just a couple of minutes (or read nothing at all), then took computer tests to measure their ability to notice people around them. It was all very short-term, sort of like using literature as a quickie brain-teaser to stimulate curiosity about people around you. No word on the longer-term results of exposure to literature.

    Here's an excerpt, including an explanation of how they think the effect operates:

    [The study...] found that after reading literary fiction, as opposed to popular fiction or serious nonfiction, people performed better on tests measuring empathy, social perception and emotional intelligence — skills that come in especially handy when you are trying to read someone’s body language or gauge what they might be thinking.

    The researchers say the reason is that literary fiction often leaves more to the imagination, encouraging readers to make inferences about characters and be sensitive to emotional nuance and complexity. [...]

    http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/1...-read-chekhov/
    Anyway, just to throw in my two cents: Yeah, high literature probably makes you more curious about yourself vs. the world. On the other hand, popular culture would probably be better than high literature when it comes to attuning you to social conventions and rules as they are actually practiced on the day-to-day level. In other words, watching an hour of "Jersey Shore" (popular culture reality series) will probably give you more confidence when it comes time to actually go out into society and interact directly with others, because when you watch a "reality series" you can see normal social rules and interactions spelled out and played out right in front of you.

    College professor and cultural commentator Camille Paglia recently stated that the most exciting thing currently happening in the arts are the various “Real Housewives” reality TV shows: "It’s an entire all-absorbing universe of pride and passion. [...] This is contemporary cinematography at its sparkling best." http://www.salon.com/2013/08/21/cami...nce/singleton/

    To put it another way: High culture probably tunes up your Fi, while popular culture probably tunes up your Fe. High culture and popular culture aren't mutually exclusive; it's not a zero-sum game. A well-rounded individual probably needs a good awareness of both types of culture in order to function well in the world.

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