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  1. #91
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    @Mole

    Do you think 'The Wind in the Willows' counts as High Culture?

  2. #92
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    Mole and High Culture

    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    @Mole

    Do you think 'The Wind in the Willows' counts as High Culture?
    Yes, if for no other reason than it is well written.

    And it was written before the catastrophe of the First World War, and Wind in the Willows has lasted right up to the present day. And I think we can say it is part of our literary canon.

    Wind in the Willows has been taken into our culture and informs our values. It is read to children across the world, and it also appeals to grownups.

    When I buy my coffee in the morning, they ask my name, and I say, Mole, and most baristas know of Mole - high culture with coffee.

  3. #93
    Theta Male Julius_Van_Der_Beak's Avatar
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    Ok, not trying to be an ass, but it's bugging me.


    A cannon is something you shoot at people with. A collection of important works is a canon.
    [Trump's] rhetoric is not an abuse of power. In the same way that it's also not against the law to do a backflip off of the roof of your house onto your concrete driveway. It's just mind-numbingly stupid and, to say the least, counterproductive. - Bush did 9-11


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  4. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mole View Post
    When I buy my coffee in the morning, they ask my name, and I say, Mole, and most baristas know of Mole - high culture with coffee.
    Lol. Charles Winchester is that you? I love you in MASH.

  5. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by msg_v2 View Post
    Ok, not trying to be an ass, but it's bugging me.


    A cannon is something you shoot at people with. A collection of important works is a canon.
    Our Mole on High
    Deliver us, that thunderous Cannon
    Absolve me of Twilight

  6. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mole View Post
    Yes, if for no other reason than it is well written.

    And it was written before the catastrophe of the First World War, and Wind in the Willows has lasted right up to the present day. And I think we can say it is part of our literary canon.

    Wind in the Willows has been taken into our culture and informs our values. It is read to children across the world, and it also appeals to grownups.

    When I buy my coffee in the morning, they ask my name, and I say, Mole, and most baristas know of Mole - high culture with coffee.
    The only thing I can see here that could not likewise be applied to just about any element of low culture would be that it is well-written.

    And some elements of low culture might even be said attain that status.

    I say this not to be argumentative, nor because I disagree with your fundamental point -- that high culture is more enriching to our souls than is low culture -- but because I do think it's an interesting question how new works of art come to be considered a part of high culture, as opposed to low culture.

  7. #97
    Gotta catch you all! Blackmail!'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by msg_v2 View Post
    The Nazis had "taste" which is relevant, actually, because it tells you how fucking useless "taste" is.
    No, unfortunately you're totally wrong on that specific subject. The Nazi regime rejected very strongly high culture and appealed everytime to the masses, very demagogically, just like what you did when you tried to use that argument. True independant artists were prosecuted and murdered everyday under the Nazi rule, while "popular" German arts were encouraged and subsidized. Nazis had lists of books and musics you would not be allowed to read or hear.

    Hitler was a failed artist, a failure of the system, so he hated high culture even more because he had been rejected by it. He hated "high painting", he hated "high music". His actual tastes in classical music were ridiculous. Have you tried to hear Anton Bruckner works and not fell asleep? He hated Mozart with a fierce rage, he hated Beethoven even more. Everything he really liked was a lowly popular form of the contemporary "German/Austrian rural/folk music" of his times. For the United States, the best possible comparison would be country music.

    Every totalitarian ideologies hate high culture and try to replace it with a form of impoverished "low culture", to control the masses and make them more obedient. It is actually one of the possible definition of totalitarianism, and the exact same phenomena occured both in Stalinism and Islamism (Italian Fascism being the sole exception, because it didn't immediately destroyed its "avant-garde").

    "Wenn ich das Wort Kultur höre, dann greife ich schon an meinen Revolver" -> Baldur von Schirach, head of the Hitler Jugend.

    Translation: "When I hear the word "culture", I have to grab my Revolver".


    The only thing that determines high culture is the fact that people still remember it centuries after the fact.
    Once again, you're wrong.

    There are contemporary works that can be undoubtedly labelled as "High culture". Why do you think some people still manage to win the Nobel prize of litterature?
    And it's the same for movies, and it's still the same for painting, and anything else.
    When for instance you watch a movie like "the Hunt" (Thomas Vinterberg -> 2012), it's not the same experience as the latest Hollywood blockbuster, and it's not for the same audience as well. And even you, I'm sure you would not be able to confuse David Lynch or Terrence Malick with American Pie or Harry Potter. Can you tell me at least why?
    Last edited by Blackmail!; 10-08-2013 at 01:11 PM.
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  8. #98
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    Blackmail and I have managed to agree on something.

    That's when you really know the rest of you people are wrong.

  9. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackmail! View Post
    No, unfortunately you're totally wrong on that specific subject. The Nazi regime rejected very strongly high culture and appealed everytime to the masses, very demagogically, just like what you did when you tried to use that argument. True independant artists were prosecuted and murdered everyday under the Nazi rule, while "popular" German arts were encouraged and subsidized. Nazis had lists of books and musics you would not be allowed to read or hear.
    Yes... much like a list of stuff that's in "good taste". I'm not the one advocating the dismissal of certain forms of culture. Yes, the Nazis hated modern art, and hated new stuff. I'm not arguing with you. They hated the modern in favor of the traditional. To me, the term "high culture" does not allow for modern art, but only for traditional art. I've never seen a good denotation of the term, so I'm stuck with the connotations I have, which to me includes traditional and excludes anything made after the 20th century.

    Hitler was a failed artist, a failure of the system, so he hated high culture even more because he had been rejected by it. He hated "high painting", he hated "high music". His actual taste in classical music were ridiculous. Have you tried to hear Anton Bruckner works and not fell asleep? He hated Mozart with a fierce rage, he hated Beethoven even more.
    Horseshit. I'm not sure about Mozart... but...

    http://fcit.usf.edu/holocaust/arts/musreich.htm

    According to Hitler and Goebbels (Hitler's second in command), the three master composers that represented good German music were Ludwig van Beethoven, Richard Wagner, and Anton Bruckner.
    I like Beethoven. I'm not hating on Beethoven. But if Hitler felt Beethoven was an abomination, I'd need to see a quote, and only like German country music, whatever that is, I'd need to see a quote.

    This is the first time I've heard of Bruckner, but I'm pretty sure a lot of people still consider Wagner to be high culture. You might also want to read some of Wagner's complaints about "low culture." I wonder how they would fit into your argument.


    Every totalitarian ideologies hate high culture and try to replace it with a form of impoverished "low culture", to control the masses and make them more obedient. It is actually one of the possible definition of totalitarianism.
    Actually, I think what you do with totalitarian ideologies is make people jerk off to the superiority of your civilization against "barbarism." Which is exactly what someone is doing in this thread.

    There are contemporary works that can be undoubtedly labelled as "High culture". Why do you think some people still manage to win the Nobel prize of litterature?

    And it's the same for movies, and it's still the same for painting, and anything else.
    Contemporary things are not what I think of when I think of high culture. I never get the sense that people invoking the term "high culture" are referring to Paul Thomas Anderson, or (even better) Stanley Kubrick movies, for instance. "High culture" to me, privileges the traditional over the innovative. I've never seen a good denotation of "high culture", so I'm stuck with the connotations it turns up.

    Excuse me, my head is getting itchy. Let me take off my cowboy hat and go fire guns at paint cans. I have to take my pickup truck out early tomorrow to rope some cattle.
    [Trump's] rhetoric is not an abuse of power. In the same way that it's also not against the law to do a backflip off of the roof of your house onto your concrete driveway. It's just mind-numbingly stupid and, to say the least, counterproductive. - Bush did 9-11


    This is not going to go the way you think....

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  10. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackmail! View Post
    No, unfortunately you're totally wrong on that specific subject. The Nazi regime rejected very strongly high culture and appealed everytime to the masses, very demagogically, just like what you did when you tried to use that argument. True independant artists were prosecuted and murdered everyday under the Nazi rule, while "popular" German arts were encouraged and subsidized. Nazis had lists of books and musics you would not be allowed to read or hear.

    Hitler was a failed artist, a failure of the system, so he hated high culture even more because he had been rejected by it. He hated "high painting", he hated "high music". His actual taste in classical music were ridiculous. Have you tried to hear Anton Bruckner works and not fell asleep? He hated Mozart with a fierce rage, he hated Beethoven even more. Everything he really liked was a lowly popular form of the contemporary "German/Austrian rural music" of his times. For the United States, the best possible comparison would be country music.

    Every totalitarian ideologies hate high culture and try to replace it with a form of impoverished "low culture", to control the masses and make them more obedient. It is actually one of the possible definition of totalitarianism, and the exact same phenomena occured both in Stalinism and Islamism (Italian Fascism being the sole exception, because it didn't immediately destroyed its "avant-garde").

    "Wenn ich das Wort Kultur höre, dann greife ich schon an meinen Revolver" -> Baldur von Schirach, head of the Hitler Jugend.

    Translation: "When I hear the word "culture", I have to grab my Revolver".

    Once again, you're wrong.

    There are contemporary works that can be undoubtedly labelled as "High culture". Why do you think some people still manage to win the Nobel prize of litterature?
    And it's the same for movies, and it's still the same for painting, and anything else.
    When for instance you watch a movie like "the Hunt" (Thomas Vinterberg -> 2012), it's not the same experience as the latest Hollywood blockbuster, and it's not for the same audience as well. And even you, I'm sure you would not be able to confuse David Lynch or Terrence Malick with American Pie or Harry Potter. Can you tell me at least why?
    This is very well put, my dear Blackmail, you have covered all the bases and made an unassailble case for high culture. We are indebted to you.

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