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  1. #1
    window shopper Typh0n's Avatar
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    Default Is democracy an open door to totalitarianism?

    I figured this was the best place to put this.

    I was thinking earlier on today, about how European democracy and American democracy seem to differ, that one doesnt mean the same thing in one geo-poltical region as in the other. It seems the word "democracy" is used today by both politicians and non politicians alike as a synonym of good government, though I've already, in the past, posited that this is questioneable. Anyways, as I said, in America, Democracy seems to mean something different than in Europe, in that in the American system it has become synonymous with the defending the rights of citizens via the Bill of Rights and the US Constitution, wheareas in Europe thats not what democracy means at all, it is more a synonymn of freedom or should I say, too much freedom. This is even more true of the term "democracy" in the Middle East. The whole Arab Spring thing is a disaster, wars, chaos, Islamists and terrorist organizations taking over. Is this what democracy looks like? Perhaps, when too much freedom reigns, anything becomes possible. Even totalitarianism.

    Plato had some interesting insights regarding democracy, or the rule of the many, in The Republic. He said that democracy and Tyranny(the word "Totalitarianism" didnt exist until the 20th century, when it became a sad reality) where two opposite swings of a pendulum, one being the time of freedom and the other being the time when the people are improsined under the rule of a tyrant. However, one easily leads to the other, as in having total freedom inevitably means someone will take abuse of power to its extreme and total form. Having total freedom means anyone can abuse and suppress that freedom. This is and had has been the case throughout thousands of years of European history, though America seems to have avoided this problem.

    I think Democracy is bad for Europe and even worse for the Middle East. In America, poltical parties that are hateful, extremist, or terrorists are outlawed. However in most European countries, part of the freedom is having NAZI, Islamist, and white supremacist parties(just to name a few) be allowed to participate in elections! Recently the Dutch government wants to- wants to - permit a hateful Islamist party to join their elections. This disgusts me. If you compare Europe's laxist mentality to the no Bullshit attitude of American law in this regard, you can see that, why I, as a European do not promote democracy as a form of government. If I lived in the Middle East, which thank God I dont, I would hate it even ten times more.

    I feel that everyone has to stop using the word "deocracy" as a synonym of good government for non-American countries. Until developing countries produce great minds such as Jefferson and Washington to write their constitutions for them, based on social contract, human rights for all and on outlawing political parties which promote an idealogy which has been known to lead to suppession of individual freedoms(such as Islamist parties) they shouldnt idealize the right to vote. Voting, in the Middle East, always means Islamists get the vote, since appearantly many want them to be in power. There are also many who dont, but I suspect elections in countries like Egypt were rigged anyways.

    Anyways, what are your thoughts?

  2. #2
    WALMART
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    libertarian platitudes 101

    you can teach it

  3. #3
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by superunknown View Post
    libertarian platitudes 101

    you can teach it
    Yeah, my thoughts exactly.

    People should govern themselves, unless they are working people and vote together.

  4. #4
    window shopper Typh0n's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by superunknown View Post
    libertarian platitudes 101

    you can teach it
    What does what I wrote have to do with libertarianism? Seriously, I never said anything about libertarianism, nor is this the place to discuss it.

  5. #5
    window shopper Typh0n's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark
    Yeah, my thoughts exactly.

    People should govern themselves, unless they are working people and vote together.
    Again, this isnt the place to vent your hatred of libertarianism, Lark, as much as youd like it to be, my OP was about something much more rich than promoting libertarianism.

    Did you even read it?

  6. #6
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Typh0n View Post
    Again, this isnt the place to vent your hatred of libertarianism, Lark, as much as youd like it to be, my OP was about something much more rich than promoting libertarianism.

    Did you even read it?
    Yeah, you'll find I give vent to whatever I feel like, if you have difficulty with that well, I'm sure you can find help someplace.

    I read it and I thought that @superunknown summed it up about right.

  7. #7
    window shopper Typh0n's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Yeah, you'll find I give vent to whatever I feel like, if you have difficulty with that well, I'm sure you can find help someplace.

    I read it and I thought that @superunknown summed it up about right.
    Well I feel that he didnt, and his attitude towards me reflects in that response shows that he either didnt understand what I wrote, or didnt read it carefully enough.

  8. #8
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Typh0n View Post
    Well I feel that he didnt, and his attitude towards me reflects in that response shows that he either didnt understand what I wrote, or didnt read it carefully enough.
    Perhaps you dont understand what he wrote or why and you've personalised it. Your view of democracy IS a libertarian platitude.

  9. #9

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    European democracy is not built on "too much freedom". Opposite to the american democracy it is much more humanitarian, social, and open minded and provides more ways of understanding and explanations. European democracy is more open to people and their needs, while the american is more open to business and possibilities, with very strong belief and moral system. Also you can't say just "European democracy" , Europe doesn't exists as a state, but as a union of different and politically independent sates with different types of democracy, leadership and system. Every state has it's own way to manage their country. You can't ever say right/wrong democracy. Europe developed its political system, when indians in america were hunting bison. Democracy in America is built on this right/wrong system, democrats/republicans, liberalism/conservative... While in Europe you have the wide circle of different approaches and political parts. So yes democracy in Europe is much more free and open.... Why would it lead us to totality? We still have free schools, free universities, free medical care, medias, that don't wash up our minds, we can say what we really want and believe in without being called the terorists... Eurpe just doesn't need that strong moral and belief system as America need it... be honest... look what happend to you... Bush... really? Obama... not bad, but stil... You are about going to Syria? Oh...I thought so, you can't find oil in Egypt right?

  10. #10
    window shopper Typh0n's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Perhaps you dont understand what he wrote or why and you've personalised it. Your view of democracy IS a libertarian platitude.
    No its not, not liberterian nor a platitude.

    My ideal of government is something along the lines of a more tradional aristocracy. Aristcoracy is the opposite of democracy, in that leaders simply are not elected but attain government positions through birthright, or divine right.

    Libertarinism is something different, being a relatively new phenomenon, it is simply right wing economics mixed with anti governmentism.

    Libertarians want as little possible strain from that governemnt as possible, and thats part of the problem I describe: wanting too much freedom in an organized society. I dont want that.

    Also I did say that Democracy was fine in America, but not in Europe or the Middle East for humanitarian reasons. Morsi's concept of democracy, founded on Charia law(which according to Morsi is the "highest expression of democracy"), kills people.

    The only real platitude in people's mouths is the word "democracy", used a synonym of good government.

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