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  1. #71
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    We had to answer this question nationally in 1952 when we were asked at Referendum whether the totalitarian Communist Party of Australia should be banned.

    And we voted not to ban the totalitarian Communist Party of Australia but to oppose them using democratic means. And it worked.

  2. #72
    Gotta catch you all! Blackmail!'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    Why would you lie about something so easily refuted? After calling someone else out for making exactly the same kind of bullshit claim? Tsk tsk.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-24014551
    Fremskrittspartiet = "Progress Party"

    I did not lie. The "progress party" is technically a far right movement, populist, anti-Islam, anti-immigration, socially very conservative: no wonder Breivik was a member of this party during a decade.
    It is also supported and funded by the Norwegian oil industry, hence its denial of man-made global climate change.

    Siv Jensen, her actual leader, describes herself as inspired by Thatcher.

    Norway has a HUGE issue with nationalism. It is almost the only country in Western Europe where classic far-right thesis and ideology are considered rather mainstream.
    "A man who only drinks water has a secret to hide from his fellow-men" -Baudelaire

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  3. #73
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackmail! View Post
    Fremskrittspartiet = "Progress Party"

    I did not lie. The "progress party" is technically a far right movement,
    Yes, but they didn't win the election, as you stated. The more moderate centre-right Conservative party did. They planned to formed a coalition with one other and this fringe group, who are said to have watered down their extremism in response to a the Breivik massacre.

    Norway has a HUGE issue with nationalism. It is almost the only country in Western Europe where classic far-right thesis and ideology are considered rather mainstream.
    I can only reiterate that this was not my experience, and not because I tend to hang exclusively with lefties. Incidentally, Labour won most seats in this election, as in every other for the vast majority of the past century. So your characterisation of them as rabid right-wingers is a gross distortion.

  4. #74
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    1: I suspected Plato was going to be mentioned. On this topic, he said perhaps the stupidest thing he has ever said. He said that democracy is worse than tyranny because it inevitably leads to tyranny. I actually read The Republic by the way. For years I've been wondering how he didn't figure out that such a proposition still suggests tyranny is the worst form of government. I like to joke that it's because syllogisms were not invented until his pupil came around.

    2: That aside, the shortest way I can put a response is that you are over-simplifying things.

    The point about Jefferson is silly, because countries like Vietnam for example have a constitution heavily copied and pasted from the American one. It isn't because other countries don't have great political thinkers, it isn't because they don't have constitutions with lovely stuff in it, it's because social circumstances pose a problem for the operation of democracy (I'm particularly talking about the middle east here). The problem will not be fixed by stuffing a bit more wording into a constitution.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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  5. #75
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Eric X. Li: A tale of two political systems

    This TED talk is a much more compelling discussion of the issue of democracy's value.

    Yes, I can put some holes in his presentation.

    A great deal of China's proportionally massive figures just have to do with its proportionally massive population.
    It's lack of development part allows for growth that is not so accessible to first world democracies that have already plateaued. But
    He provides no actual evidence that the current trajectory is sustainable.
    And anything he cites about popular satisfaction is essentially useless because China is a propaganda driven state.

    But in spite of all of that, he still makes a case that demands a response from anyone who considers themselves a serious and realistic advocate
    of democracy.

    My points above cannot completely dismiss China's successes, which they allegedly should not be experiencing with their system.
    His point about the PRCs radical history of reform is essentially true.
    And notice how the audience, who I imagine were quite uncomfortable with much of this presentation, still broke out into applause when Li said that he's not sure if democracies do represent their people anymore.

    That last point is the most unnerving. If there's one thing a democratic system is supposed to do, if nothing else, isn't it supposed to tie the government's concerns with the peoples' concerns? If democracy fails that, it fails essentially.

    Now, I am not deciding the reject democracy (and it's interesting how one of Li's main points is not to reject democracy but to suggests there will never been a panacea government), but I have given a lot of thought to how democracy as it is currently practiced must fundamentally change to become legitimate again.

    Naturally, it's one of the hardest problems in political science and I don't feel I have an answer. As it is, I am leaning toward some scheming of maximally informing the populace and doing everything possible to exclude the electoral influence of anything other than the informed vote (like corporate cash). We'll see if I can flesh it out into anything more practically detailed some day.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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  6. #76

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    I so want to win the lottery

  7. #77
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    China is a propaganda driven state.
    So naturally it is impossible to buy the latest history of the Communist Party of China called, "The Tragedy of Liberation".

    For anyone interested in the Chinese people, "The Tragedy of Liberation", is essential reading, along with, "The Black Book of Communism".

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