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  1. #41
    Gotta catch you all! Blackmail!'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Typh0n View Post
    In France, I hear its a bit different, but still, they almost had Marine LePen be elected president of the Republic, so I dunno.
    Aside of your libertarian platitudes, now, this is a proof you are trolling.

    Marine Le Pen did not pass the first turn, she was ten points behind the second. Aside of that, in Belgium, far right ideas are widely heard, especially in Flanders and Antwerpen (NVA is often considered far right, even if there is worst than it). Less in Wallonia, of course...
    "A man who only drinks water has a secret to hide from his fellow-men" -Baudelaire

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  2. #42
    Gotta catch you all! Blackmail!'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Typh0n View Post
    Becauase countries like Iraq, Egypt, and Syria are all ravaged by war and their politcal landscape is a total mess. True, you can argue that in the long term it may pay off and the politcal landscape will stabilize, maybe, but whos to say it will, and if it does how long will it take.
    Now, that's a second proof you are either:

    1/ A troll

    or

    2/ Very ignorant and uneducated

    ---

    Because:

    (A) Iraq was not part of the Arab Spring

    (B) There is no war in Egypt

    (C) You're forgetting what happened first in Tunisia, in Morocco, in Qatar... etc...

    ---

    If you knew those countries, if you would have lived there a bit, you would immediately understand that things had to change, that the previous Arabian dictatorships were already crumbling from inside. It was in fact, not possible to avoid a revolution to get rid of corruption, of nepotism, of arbitrary decisions.... And people wanted (and still want) that change badly. They want a state of law, where law is the same for all. That's all, but that's an absolute necessity.

    You know what I think? That its not democracy itself that brings people a better life, its cultured leaders who can bring life to an otherwise dead poltical system. Political systems are just that, systems. In and of themselves they have no value. Its only the right people that can give them value and make them work, otherwise they dont.
    Once again, you should try to live a few years under the rule of a brutal corrupt dictatorship, and then tell me what you think afterwards. You have to live in your flesh what the so-called "system" really means in your daily life.

    Maybe it could teach you a lot about your own rights... you know, those rights we take for granted under a democratic system.
    "A man who only drinks water has a secret to hide from his fellow-men" -Baudelaire

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  3. #43
    Gotta catch you all! Blackmail!'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    Because of Norway's sordid history of Imperialism?
    Of course, but it's not only that.
    There are forms of nationalism that can be, indeed, sympathetic when for instance a people ask to be freed, ask to have the right to self-determine its political fate.

    In Norway, it's not at all the case. What is really scary there, is the conviction shared by the majority of locals that they are INHERENTLY SUPERIOR to anybody, that Norwegians are the Master Race, the most industrious, the most clever, the richer, the most beautiful people on earth... etc...
    And worst, they want to convince you, sometimes very naively that indeed, they are SUPERIOR BEINGS belonging to a SUPERIOR CULTURE. It's their way of welcoming tourists, and they do it with a smile, without meaning any harm.

    Of course, not all Norwegians share these cultural traits and, for instance, when I was in Bergen I'd say everything looked almost normal compared to other European states. In Bergen I met normal people who were fully aware how blind and foolish Norwegian nationalism is. It's a local tradition: this city has always been in conflict with mainland Norway, especially because it was founded by foreigners and expanded through immigration. But anywhere else...
    "A man who only drinks water has a secret to hide from his fellow-men" -Baudelaire

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  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Polly View Post
    I meant more like religion, or ethics. Yeah really you can't blame europeans for how we treat gypsies, or muslims. I have nothing against muslisms, they don't even live in our country, France has something against them and I disagree with how they try to supress ther religion, beliefs, probihites them to observe their traditions. This is just so wrong, and goes against every humanitarian idea, that has ever been born in Europe. On the other hand, I can understand why France did, what they did. I am not saying it's right, I just say I can understand why an independent country where muslisms started to occupy more and more jobs, schools, started to push their bielf system at the expense of native born French, it's logical that the country stands to side of their own people. Yeah it is patriotism, it is holding us back from seeing all the possibilities, that would came out from cooperations with other nations. It is bad, it is a huge stap back that holding us from progress and the final unity... I didn't try to be patriotic, I just tried to explain prejudices and misunderstandings, with whom the first post was full of. To imigracy issues... yeah you know it sucks. You have your own country, 500 milion people, that need jobs, food, money, living and suddenly other 200 milion people came here and they need the same things, but you even suffer to provide living and food for that 500 milion... So what will you do? You try to protect you own people... That's just how it goes. Any other reasons why to treat immigrants bad called rasism... it exists... in Europe, in U.S, in Africa... It exists all over the world even though we try so hard not to... After all, we just close our eyes and say... Everything is fine, we can't that people are rasists, we love each other... even though everyone knows it is a bullshit...
    I fail to understand this half-digested mess. Where are you from, my dear Polly?

    Have you ever been in France and read enough before starting to express very strange views about its politics?

    France has strictly NOTHING against Muslims. As a matter of fact it's the European country with the largest share of Muslim citizens -between 10 and 12%- (except Bosnia and Albania of course), where you have the highest number of mosques. And France has also a long tradition (for better and for worse sometimes) of dealing with Muslim countries and cultures, contrary to most European countries who see Muslim people as inherently "foreign". What I mean by that, is that in Germany, Netherlands or the UK where you also have sizeable Muslim communities (although not as large as in France), they live there, but the majority of them will never become full citizens with full and equal rights (and this is not what they want anyway).

    Anyway, when you go or live in North Africa just like I did, it's obvious to notice how close to France those countries are, culturally speaking. Colonization, I know. But it's a fact: they influenced us in return as much as we influenced them. And as a consequence, a French guy could feel quite at home even in Morocco, and vice-versa. But I don't think such feeling could be possible for an average German or a Brit (for instance).

    France, however, has a strong tradition of jacobinism and republicanism. Contrary to other European lands, because of its past prosperity, tolerance, and huge cultural influence, it is an immigration country just like the United States (more than half of current French citizens have foreign roots). It means, for instance, that the state encourages to "integrate" immigrants rather than allowing them to live in a separate community or neighbourhood (separation and segregation being the Anglo-saxon model). Those who seek to belong to the Nation (the majority of French Muslims in fact!), who understand we all share a common political fate and destiny have little or no problem. But those who want to remain separated, isolated, those who want to remain a foreign body forever may indeed face legal issues.
    This is what happened, for instance, to the Muslim extremist minority. When they asked a separation between men and women in public buildings or public transports, the French government adamantly refused. When they ask that their women should hide their face, it's against the law : French law requires that in public space, everybody could freely recognize or identify who you are. It's not directed against Muslims per se, this law is much older than that. French law also asks that in public buildings, civil servants should not show obvious signs of the community they belong to, to prevent favoritism. It's Jacobine tradition: all citizens should be equals, and everything has to be made to prevent discrimination. And first and foremost: the state is clearly separated from the church, or from any religion. For a civil servant, wearing a hidjab is forbidden. Wearing ostensibly a crucifix is also forbidden. All religions or communities are treated equally, and there are no exception, no derogatory rules just like the odd system they tested in Canada -with bad results-.

    I should also mention that according to many polls and sociologic surveys, French Muslims are the less religious Muslim community in Europe, the less concerned with religion -only barely a fourth of them are "practising Muslims"-. But the radical minority is extremely active and aggressive, and should unfortunately not be underestimated. It is this radical community only that causes this turmoil, because they, in fact, do not accept Western democracy and want to implement Sharia instead, their so-called Divine law.

    Now, if you call Jacobinism or Republicanism a kind of racist ideology that goes "against every humanitarian idea, that has ever been born in Europe", it simply means you don't understand history (especially what the Age of enlightenment was), and that you should immediately read Voltaire, Montesquieu and Kant as soon as possible.
    Last edited by Blackmail!; 09-22-2013 at 02:33 AM.
    "A man who only drinks water has a secret to hide from his fellow-men" -Baudelaire

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  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackmail! View Post
    Once again, you should try to live a few years under the rule of a brutal corrupt dictatorship, and then tell me what you think afterwards. You have to live in your flesh what the so-called "system" really means in your daily life.

    Maybe it could teach you a lot about your own rights... you know, those rights we take for granted under a democratic system.
    Hear hear.

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackmail! View Post
    Of course, but it's not only that.
    Wut? I was being sarcastic. Norway only gained independence at the beginning of the twentieth century. Flag-flying enthusiasm comes with that territory. I expect to see a good many more saltires on display in the coming months.
    There are forms of nationalism that can be, indeed, sympathetic when for instance a people ask to be freed, ask to have the right to self-determine its political fate.
    Exactly.

    In Norway, it's not at all the case. What is really scary there, is the conviction shared by the majority of locals that they are INHERENTLY SUPERIOR to anybody, that Norwegians are the Master Race, the most industrious, the most clever, the richer, the most beautiful people on earth... etc...
    And worst, they want to convince you, sometimes very naively that indeed, they are SUPERIOR BEINGS belonging to a SUPERIOR CULTURE. It's their way of welcoming tourists, and they do it with a smile, without meaning any harm.
    This is utter nonsense. I lived in Norway for the best part of a year. I have no idea what you are talking about. Nor would Anders Breivik recognise your vision of that country. He waged a one man war on that nation's youth because he was disgusted by the tolerance of his own countrymen. Much like the OP.

    It's pretty funny to hear a Frenchman disparage other nations for having a superiority complex...

  6. #46
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    What's meant by totalitarian anyway? How does it differ from authoritarianism?

    I read a book once which suggested that totalitarianism differed because it required the population to be in a state of perpetual mobilisation or that the public carry out the mission of social control the state's officers preserved for themselves, in that sense thatcherism or capitalism could be totalitarian, or at least totalising, because they involve populism and grass roots opinion and can successfully co-opt most forms of protest into support of the status quo.

    Authoritarianism and totalitarianism are often just discussed as varying degrees of political "badness" and its all vague.

  7. #47
    reflecting pool Typh0n's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackmail! View Post
    Aside of your libertarian platitudes, now, this is a proof you are trolling.

    Marine Le Pen did not pass the first turn, she was ten points behind the second. Aside of that, in Belgium, far right ideas are widely heard, especially in Flanders and Antwerpen (NVA is often considered far right, even if there is worst than it). Less in Wallonia, of course...
    Im trolling? Either you cannot read, didnt bother to, or dont understand.

    I know Lepen didnt make it past the primaries, however she had a disturbing nuumber of votes during those primaries. I think she was third in number of votes after Hollande and Sarkozy, and if it hadnt been for Sarkozy...


    Your subtle accusations of me being NVA are pretty presumptous.

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackmail! View Post
    Now, that's a second proof you are either:

    1/ A troll

    or

    2/ Very ignorant and uneducated

    ---
    Yeah, Im glad you're taking to attacking me personally, which paints YOU as the troll here.

    Because:

    (A) Iraq was not part of the Arab Spring

    (B) There is no war in Egypt
    I didnt say it was or that there is, I was generalizing. Know the context of what Im saying(ie the subject matter at hand) before getting pedantic.

    (C) You're forgetting what happened first in Tunisia, in Morocco, in Qatar... etc...

    ---

    If you knew those countries, if you would have lived there a bit, you would immediately understand that things had to change, that the previous Arabian dictatorships were already crumbling from inside. It was in fact, not possible to avoid a revolution to get rid of corruption, of nepotism, of arbitrary decisions.... And people wanted (and still want) that change badly. They want a state of law, where law is the same for all. That's all, but that's an absolute necessity.

    No, its not all. People think this is all because populist theories have been hammered into our ears, but you fail to realize two things within the context of this thread that there are two problems or defects that keep many middle eastern countries from being "free". The first is keeping extremist parties out of the elections. This is important because if we do not, and they get elected they will suppress the next election. Hardly a "democratic" move. The second thing is social contract theory(Hobbes, Locke, Rousseau) which is what defines governments in the free world. Social cotract ensures our rights and protection from the government.

    If believing that makes me a liberatarian, so be it. Id rather be a liberatrian than an ignoramus.

    Once again, you should try to live a few years under the rule of a brutal corrupt dictatorship, and then tell me what you think afterwards. You have to live in your flesh what the so-called "system" really means in your daily life.

    Maybe it could teach you a lot about your own rights... you know, those rights we take for granted under a democratic system.
    No, thanks for living under a dictator, but, feel free to do so yourself, if it fills your need. They have flights to Saudi Arabia.

    I do know about my noggin' rights, and in Belgium, voting is not a right but an obligation.

    No, I dont have to live under a dictator to know about my freedoms, which I demonsrate my understanding of better than you.

  8. #48
    reflecting pool Typh0n's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    I dont believe there's such thing as too much freedom...
    So you beleive people can do whatever they want, without having to think of the consequences whatsoever?



    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    What's meant by totalitarian anyway? How does it differ from authoritarianism?

    I read a book once which suggested that totalitarianism differed because it required the population to be in a state of perpetual mobilisation or that the public carry out the mission of social control the state's officers preserved for themselves, in that sense thatcherism or capitalism could be totalitarian, or at least totalising, because they involve populism and grass roots opinion and can successfully co-opt most forms of protest into support of the status quo.

    Authoritarianism and totalitarianism are often just discussed as varying degrees of political "badness" and its all vague.
    No, totalitarian me means a total removal of any competition/political opppositon by the reigning poltical party.

    If you feel that thats a good thing, Lark, you are more corrupt the libertarians you hate.

    But Im not saying you do.

  9. #49
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Typh0n View Post
    So you beleive people can do whatever they want, without having to think of the consequences whatsoever?





    No, totalitarian me means a total removal of any competition/political opppositon by the reigning poltical party.

    If you feel that thats a good thing, Lark, you are more corrupt the libertarians you hate.

    But Im not saying you do.
    Not sure what you're saying, you dont give people consequences, they happen as a matter of course and are unavoidable, you're either aware or not.

    I know what totalitarianism is, you're talking about dictatorship, one party in power and the rest in prison.

    I dont much care for comparisons with libertarian dogs.

  10. #50
    reflecting pool Typh0n's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Not sure what you're saying, you dont give people consequences, they happen as a matter of course and are unavoidable, you're either aware or not.

    I know what totalitarianism is, you're talking about dictatorship, one party in power and the rest in prison.

    I dont much care for comparisons with libertarian dogs.
    You can give people consequences, for example with civil law and law enforcement, the justice system, is I believe a way of punishing those who offend the law by creating non-natural/man-made consequences to their actions. There are also natural consequences to actions, like for example drinking a poison a dying, but thats not so much what I meant, so to rephrase the quesion: do you beleive in civil law, laws enforcement, and the justice system?

    I never saw much of difference between totalitarianism and dictatorship.

    Just saying, its morally worse to be a dictator than a friggin libertarian. Not calling you either though.

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