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  1. #11
    Senior Member iNtrovert's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    Human beings (I assume all sentient beings) have a concept of good and experience something to the effect of happiness. This may seem to be subjective, but the process of your experiencing happiness is a physically real process (as are all things in your brain) and so in that sense it is objective. What's more, human beings are far more similar than they are different, and presumably other human beings have this capacity, too.

    From this we may not get an absolute morality, but we can get an objective one in so far as we communicate and we can perceive emotion, and have influence on each other. Empathy is the closest thing to an objective morality.
    Yes but who is to say any of those things are to be valued. I can choose forgo the happiness of others and disregard empathy of another cause. If I deem the value of the emotional state of other people expendable for the sake of that cause then who is to say I have acted immorally?
    "Re-examine all that you have been told... dismiss that which insults your soul."_Walt Whitman

  2. #12
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    Benign self-interest. If there was barbarism we would all be worse off and so conscience has evolved through evolution? Or something?

    Anyway, this is where law and order and states come in, "man is the wolf of man" so we all agree a "non-agression" pact with our neighbour.

    Now if you were alone in a room with a guy, no cameras, no-one could ever find out, you were leaving the country the next day and had diplomatic immunity, you'd never met him, and you were offered $1 million to take him out, would you do it?

    If not, why not? Because of God? but if God exists, that guy will go to heaven anyway, so why not do it?

    Maybe some of us would and some of us wouldn't. But I hypothesize that the existence of God plays no role in the decision. Plus maybe He would forgive me anyway, so then I don't have to face my own conscience?

  3. #13
    Senior Member SensEye's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by iNtrovert View Post
    We can then look at morality as subjective through a democratic lenses. The good of the majority is good and the evil as defined by the majority is evil. Then what of the minority? Technically their view point is no more wrong or right there just happens to be less of them. Then where is true morality? I think that leads to nihilism. That would be the only conclusion I can draw.
    I think this is actually what we have (i.e. morality though a democratic lense). There is enough common human experience that we generally have a shared sense of what is morally correct. And yes, the minority is no more right or wrong (at least, not according to the minority). When the minority has the power to enforce their subjective viewpoint, they often do just that, and the rest of the world (a.k.a. the majority) terms these acts (which are immoral from the majority's viewpoint) "atrocities carried out by mad men".

    If you think of it the other way, if morality was truly objective and not subjective, atrocities would be relatively rare. You would have to be a pyschopath/sociopath to not subscribe to the "objective truth". You would not get large groups sharing the same non-objective viewpoints. It would be almost impossible for a majority to form that felt that genocide or slavery is acceptable if there is an objective truth that such acts are immoral. But history shows us that many societies have formed that considered such acts moral. Furthermore, those very same societies later on change their view and deem these same acts are immoral. How can that happen if morality is objective? I say it can't. It can only happen if morality is subjective.

  4. #14
    Ratchet Ass Moon Fairy Comeback Girl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by iNtrovert View Post
    @Comeback Girl I feel to ground morals in evolution is irresponsible at this point. If we were to think of it this way we’d have a very Machiavellian sense of morality. Evil deeds are justified in times of scarcity or for the purpose of self-preservation.
    No, without morals people would even be evil in times without any type of scarcity. People would just want more and more and more and kill everyone who has something they'd like to have, maybe they'll also kill some people because they don't like them, or maybe they'll kill random people just for fun and before you know it, everybody has killed everybody and human life will be extinct. You're welcome.
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  5. #15
    Senior Member iNtrovert's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SensEye View Post
    If you think of it the other way, if morality was truly objective and not subjective, atrocities would be relatively rare. You would have to be a pyschopath/sociopath to not subscribe to the "objective truth". You would not get large groups sharing the same non-objective viewpoints. It would be almost impossible for a majority to form that felt that genocide or slavery is acceptable if there is an objective truth that such acts are immoral. But history shows us that many societies have formed that considered such acts moral. Furthermore, those very same societies later on change their view and deem these same acts are immoral. How can that happen if morality is objective? I say it can't. It can only happen if morality is subjective.
    The inability of mankind to locate, idetify or adhere to an objective morality does not disprove it. Imo it merely points to a shortcoming within ourselves. How many time have you by your own standards agreed to or watched passively while something you didn't in agree with took place? I don't think anyone can say they have never acted against their moral code. If I ever found someone who truly did...I might call him/her the messiah? up until this moment...it has never really donned on me that this is exactly who the historical Jesus claimed to be. A man who has never acted against what he deemed to be immoral and even from an agnostic perspective that is amazing.
    "Re-examine all that you have been told... dismiss that which insults your soul."_Walt Whitman

  6. #16
    Senior Member iNtrovert's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Comeback Girl View Post
    No, without morals people would even be evil in times without any type of scarcity. People would just want more and more and more and kill everyone who has something they'd like to have, maybe they'll also kill some people because they don't like them, or maybe they'll kill random people just for fun and before you know it, everybody has killed everybody and human life will be extinct. You're welcome.
    I don't think you've given me anything to thank you for..
    "Re-examine all that you have been told... dismiss that which insults your soul."_Walt Whitman

  7. #17
    Senior Member iNtrovert's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Infinite Bubble View Post
    Finding your own value is much more difficult. The first part is to accept that there is (probably) no value to anything in itself. Then find what you love. Focus on it, and value it. Build your life upon it.
    I don't tend to find a value judgment based on my subjective view all that credible. I am incapable of making a decision like that. I guess I’d say other people are important to me but I know I can't live in a world where that isn't grounded in something greater than myself. To accept that there is no value in anything itself for me is madness. I know I couldn't live like that. Knowing I was chasing after a mission that I know to be intrinsically futile for me is the same to be void of purpose all together. I need to know that it all means something and I think most people do. To ignore that fore me would be like the biggest cop out and a waste of a life.

    I'm sure I could have found a better way to express this....ah ha ok lol I guess i'd say. A completely self-oriented self-serving purpose seems too selfish for me. I tend to search for a meaning a purpose etc. that it grounded in something other than myself. Something more eternal than my own individual take on the human condition.
    "Re-examine all that you have been told... dismiss that which insults your soul."_Walt Whitman

  8. #18
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by iNtrovert View Post
    If there is no god of any kind where do we (mankind) ascertain a means of objective morality and intrinsic value of human life?
    But there is a God.

  9. #19
    Senior Member Bamboo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by iNtrovert View Post
    If there is no god of any kind where do we (mankind) ascertain a means of objective morality and intrinsic value of human life?
    Without god there isn't objective morality or intrinsic value of human life, only our own arrogance to accept existing or create new and enforce those beliefs in our cultures, societies, and environments.

    Personally I don't believe in the intrinsic value of human life (or of anything that comes to mind, really).
    Don't know how much it'll bend til it breaks.

  10. #20
    Senior Member pinkgraffiti's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by iNtrovert View Post
    If there is no god of any kind where do we (mankind) ascertain a means of objective morality and intrinsic value of human life?
    study kant.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immanuel_Kant

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