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  1. #11
    Entertaining Cracker five sounds's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Honor View Post
    Quick clarification question (sorry my J-ness is showing): the question is how do you know you're being honest with yourself or encourage yourself to be honest with yourself?
    Sorry for not getting back to this thread until now. I guess I was more focused on how to know I'm being honest with myself. I think that I want to be, honest with myself, but if I actually could see the objective truth, my focus might shift to allowing myself to accept it.

    @mingularity I like what you said about suspending disbelief too. I'm naturally pretty open to possibilities, but like @skylights said, I think my Fi ideals get in the way sometimes. I think that's why I crave outside input and critiques so much. I'm hungry for objective observations about myself. I want to know as close to the truth as I can. I also am fascinated by stories or characteristics of mine when I was a child. Like somehow, it's way to look into my purest truest self before I started getting all mixed up by life.

    @Honor, you brought up an interesting point about being too aware of your own strengths and weaknesses to the point of blowing them out of proportion, which I can see myself as at-risk for. I can get kind of obsessive about understanding myself, and I'd really never seen any potential negatives to knowing more before you brought that up.

    @AffirmitiveAnxiety, I have a tendency to want to keep the things I'm ashamed of in secret, sneaking or deceiving to do so at times. As I've gotten older, I've realized the value not only for myself, but for other people struggling with feelings of inadequacy in being more open about stuff that I'm less than proud of. It's still hard as hell, but I usually feel good once I manage to do it anyway.

    @Huxley3112, that's a great list, and similar to the kinds of questions I try to ask myself when I'm questioning my self-perception. What's hard for me about other people's criticisms, is that sometimes it can be really damaging to take them to heart. I was told that I was lazy and messy a lot as a kid, and I really hated myself for that. I tried to prove I wasn't lazy by over-achieving and was either embarrassed of any signs of disorganization or tried really hard to put up a facade like I had it all together. But, of course, there was some truth to those negatively swung criticisms, and maybe the trick is gleaning the truth from the bias (i.e. I do enjoy pleasure and need breaks when working, but that doesn't make me less valuable. I might be messy, but that isn't some kind of heinous sin.) That kind of goes with what @Glycerine and @Rasofy were saying.

    But how can you know the truth when everyone only has perceptions filtered through their own perspectives and personal biases and values?

    I guess no one can, and that just has to suffice, which was a nice way for Huxley to conclude. At least we're striving for it I guess.
    You hem me in -- behind and before;
    you have laid your hand upon me.
    Such knowledge is too wonderful for me,
    too lofty for me to attain.

  2. #12
    likes this gromit's Avatar
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    Try to detach strong emotion (eg I SUCK or I AM FANFUCKINGTASTIC) from observation of yourself; instead try to go with a warmish-neutral perspective. It is tough though, because self-honesty sort of reinforces the warmish neutral perspective, and the warmish neutral perspective reinforces self-honesty.

    I have no idea if the above makes any sense but I could't think of a better term for warmish neutral.


    Also, check in with those who know you well. I think that integrating many different perspectives will approach an understanding of how things really are, a la blind men + elephant.
    Your kisses, sweeter than honey. But guess what, so is my money.

  3. #13
    likes this gromit's Avatar
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    And also, it's tough to pin down "this is how I am" ...because each of us changes depending on situations, different moods, who we are with, stages of life, etc. And there is a loooooot of overlap from person to person. So at a certain point it's a little bit futile. I would personally only try hard at this sort of thing if there is some sort of disconnect between my perception/idealized self and how that is playing out in real life: if it is causing direct strife in my day-to-day living or my relationships, or impeding my goals.
    Your kisses, sweeter than honey. But guess what, so is my money.

  4. #14
    Wake, See, Sing, Dance Cellmold's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nicolita View Post
    AffirmitiveAnxiety, I have a tendency to want to keep the things I'm ashamed of in secret, sneaking or deceiving to do so at times. As I've gotten older, I've realized the value not only for myself, but for other people struggling with feelings of inadequacy in being more open about stuff that I'm less than proud of. It's still hard as hell, but I usually feel good once I manage to do it anyway.
    Well I think it is also cathartic because of a reveal to others, which often, as this thread notes, has little to do with other people it's more....a reveal that moves us to towards self-honesty.

    It's easier to lie to yourself more than anyone else.
    'One of (Lucas) Cranach's masterpieces, discussed by (Joseph) Koerner, is in it's self-referentiality the perfect expression of left-hemisphere emptiness and a precursor of post-modernism. There is no longer anything to point to beyond, nothing Other, so it points pointlessly to itself.' - Iain McGilChrist

    Suppose a tree fell down, Pooh, when we were underneath it?"
    "Suppose it didn't," said Pooh, after careful thought.
    Piglet was comforted by this.
    - A.A. Milne.

  5. #15
    Entertaining Cracker five sounds's Avatar
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    @gromit coming at it with the realness! The idea of integrating small bits of truth to form a more whole truth is my total aim. I had never heard of that parable, and I love what it illustrates.

    Also, the truth being kind of slippery and ever-changing is definitely something I need to keep in mind. I can become so focused on nailing it down that I narrow my scope and don't allow for variables. Especially being a enneagram 7 and an ENFP, I'm constantly pursuing change actively, so I'm sure that complicates matters.

    I just hate the idea of being some equivalent of the smelly kid in class who doesn't know it or the aunt who talks about her dead shih tzu every time you see her.
    You hem me in -- behind and before;
    you have laid your hand upon me.
    Such knowledge is too wonderful for me,
    too lofty for me to attain.

  6. #16
    Entertaining Cracker five sounds's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AffirmitiveAnxiety View Post
    Well I think it is also cathartic because of a reveal to others, which often, as this thread notes, has little to do with other people it's more....a reveal that moves us to towards self-honesty.

    It's easier to lie to yourself more than anyone else.
    Yeah, it may very well be the thought of helping others by sharing that gives me the courage to do so. Whenever someone else shares something about themselves that is unflattering or whatever the case may be and I feel encouraged by it, I try to communicate that to the person who did it. I think it's important to do, especially in this era of glossy photo-shopped and hyper-edited versions of ourselves being blasted into the world.
    You hem me in -- behind and before;
    you have laid your hand upon me.
    Such knowledge is too wonderful for me,
    too lofty for me to attain.

  7. #17
    Wake, See, Sing, Dance Cellmold's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nicolita View Post
    Yeah, it may very well be the thought of helping others by sharing that gives me the courage to do so. Whenever someone else shares something about themselves that is unflattering or whatever the case may be and I feel encouraged by it, I try to communicate that to the person who did it. I think it's important to do, especially in this era of glossy photo-shopped and hyper-edited versions of ourselves being blasted into the world.
    Definitely. I'll admit to a game I play with myself, I deliberately think of a hypothetical scenario and try to engage with it as if it were real....and I do so under the questioning of what I might do or react in a situation.

    The more I do it the more I let the truth out to myself about how I might react based on past experience and knowledge of my preferences, triggers and weaknesses. Doing this means that I am not deluding myself and otherwise pretending I would react in a more positive manner than I actually would.

    For example the other day on a train I was wondering about what I would do if I were presented with a person assaulting another person right in front of me.

    "Well" I thought.

    "Of course I would act and try to restrain the person and help the one in distress"

    "Would you though? " I replied.


    "YES!"

    "Ok...think about it, have you ever had anyone jump out at you and shock you suddenly?"

    "Yes..."


    "Well how did you react?"

    "I screamed like I was pre-pubescent and then raised my hands defensively to my chest"

    "Right...now increase that 10 fold in a real situation where a person can actually and IS actually being hurt."

    "Oh..."

    "Yep....the visualisation of an event is never like experiencing it firsthand, that's been your downfall every time if I remember rightly"

    "Pff...well...ok yeah yeah... that is true."


    "So you've got to try and build up a ready awareness for when it matters and not become deluded and for others benefit not become a bystander"

    "Why?"

    "Because you can't just let it become someone elses responsibility just because it COULD become someone elses, if everyone thought that it goes along chain reaction and BAM....spectator syndrome."

    "I see....well it's a good sentiment...but can I stick to it?"

    "Hmm I'm not sure yet, we'll have to see how you develop over the years and whether or not you can do it if the actual situation arises"

    "I hope so...."

    "Hope isn't good enough, make it happen"

    And so on. That often happens in my head and if I am not careful I sometimes talk to myself out loud doing it and get strange looks walking down the street.
    'One of (Lucas) Cranach's masterpieces, discussed by (Joseph) Koerner, is in it's self-referentiality the perfect expression of left-hemisphere emptiness and a precursor of post-modernism. There is no longer anything to point to beyond, nothing Other, so it points pointlessly to itself.' - Iain McGilChrist

    Suppose a tree fell down, Pooh, when we were underneath it?"
    "Suppose it didn't," said Pooh, after careful thought.
    Piglet was comforted by this.
    - A.A. Milne.

  8. #18
    Entertaining Cracker five sounds's Avatar
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    ^ that bit about screaming like you're pre-pubescent and raising your hands to your chest in defense was fantastic!

    I like that exercise, and, unlike a list of questions to consistently ask myself, I feel like I would actually enjoy it and stick with it! Can't wait to play
    You hem me in -- behind and before;
    you have laid your hand upon me.
    Such knowledge is too wonderful for me,
    too lofty for me to attain.

  9. #19
    reflecting pool Typh0n's Avatar
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    Everyone has blind spots, regardless of their self-honesty, so its good to have friends who can sometimes give you feedback and criticise you(without attacking you).

  10. #20
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Honor View Post
    Quick clarification question (sorry my J-ness is showing): the question is how do you know you're being honest with yourself or encourage yourself to be honest with yourself?
    This question is essential - central, in fact, to the whole idea of self-honesty.

    Quote Originally Posted by Honor View Post
    In my experience, the keys to self-honesty are (a) ego being kept in check and (b) cost-benefit analysis: be honest with myself now and experience pain now but less pain in the long run OR lie to myself and get immediate relief but inevitably experience more pain in the long run.
    (b) is self-explanatory, but how does one do (a)?

    Quote Originally Posted by Huxley3112 View Post
    I try to give myself quite a bit of alone time so that I can think about questions like
    why am i doing (x)?
    what am I hoping to achieve?
    Why am i avoiding (x)?
    What do I not want people to know about me?
    What upsets or makes me happy, why?
    I also ask for alot of perspectives from people that I trust. Not people that will make me feel good, but people who's judgement seems more objective than my own.
    I try to remember that everyone has blind spots and that I will always have blind spots. This is human. The desire to even be aware of these blind spots is probably the basic structures one needs to get the self-honesty wheel a rollin.
    I agree that this is a good list. You are lucky if you get useful perspectives from others. I try to view what I am doing as objectively as possible. I can look at the actual results of my actions with a fairly critical eye and am good about owning up to my mistakes. Still I don't get much feedback that I can use in seeing into those blind spots, and as my first comment in this post points out, I don't know how to assess how honest I am really being.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

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