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  1. #1
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    Default Why Evidence Alone Isn't Enough

    People can misread evidence, or it can lead people the wrong way, not to mention how some of it may be fake. Processes are more critical in understanding systems than their so-called 'results', or evidence. It can't tell us everything, let alone the right things all the time. Some evidence may even be placed out there around a bit of real evidence to trick people. That's why evidence alone I think is insufficient. Reason and systems dynamics can reveal lot a lot more. Why stuff happens rather than what it produces is where the real reasonings behind things can be seen. I think this has a good application to many conspiracy theories, which may indeed be present, and program people accordingly, but those obsessed with these conspiracies can also be misled. For reference, see my illuminati rigged sports Heat Spurs nba finals 2013 thread, which in that scenario, I actually decided that the NBA may have shifted the currents a bit in a very tight spot, but half the problem itself could be the paranoia that arises from these kinds of things; if either the Spurs or the Heat were clearly the more dominant team, than the NBA couldn't have done anything about the result. Conspiracies don't 'determine' things, so much as they may 'influence' things I think, albeit with very subtle pushes which we should know are present, but not totally freak out about. The most effective conspiracies are very shadowed and hard to prove or detect.
    I'm curious about what the following forum members on my friends list think about this topic:
    @Ene @greenfairy @Mal+ @Mole @Rasofy @superunknown @The Great One @Time

  2. #2
    royal member Rasofy's Avatar
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    A man builds. A parasite asks 'Where is my share?'
    A man creates. A parasite says, 'What will the neighbors think?'
    A man invents. A parasite says, 'Watch out, or you might tread on the toes of God... '


    -----------------

  3. #3
    Senior Member Ene's Avatar
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    People can misread evidence,
    Absolutely. Evidence reading is often based on background experience and knowledge and frames of reference.

    or it can lead people the wrong way
    ,

    Yes, especially when pulled out of its original context and intent and isolated or merged into something else [like doctored photos or edited media/news footage]

    not to mention how some of it may be fake.
    This is certainly true.

    Processes are more critical in understanding systems than their so-called 'results', or evidence.
    Any process that allows us to filter through misinformation is beneficial in this case, but some processes may actually feed and fuel the misinformation.

    It
    can't tell us everything, let alone the right things all the time. Some evidence may even be placed out there around a bit of real evidence to trick people. That's why evidence alone I think is insufficient
    .

    Absolutely. I agree with you on this.

    Reason and systems dynamics can reveal lot a lot more. Why stuff happens rather than what it produces is where the real reasonings behind things can be seen.
    Why stuff happens...I like that. Yes, I agree that it is the real reasonings behind things that are seen.

    I think this has a good application to many conspiracy theories, which may indeed be present, and program people accordingly, but those obsessed with these conspiracies can also be misled.
    I have discovered that much of the reasoning is short-sighted and many of the evidences are "stacked". However, there are some legitimate theories of frauds and government cover-ups, etc., out there, but again, sorting facts and true causes from sensationalism and mud slinging can be very difficult and obsessively time-consuming. One huge factor in conspiracy theories is fear. So, certainly, those obsessed with such theories can be misled.

    For reference, see my illuminati rigged sports Heat Spurs nba finals 2013 thread
    ,

    Very creative!

    Conspiracies don't 'determine' things, so much as they may 'influence' things I think, albeit with very subtle pushes which we should know are present, but not totally freak out about. The most effective conspiracies are very shadowed and hard to prove or detect.
    Yes, the very word, conspiracy, denotes an air of secrecy and plotting/planning among two or more parties. So, I'd say that the most effective conspiracies would have been thoroughly thought-out and covered-up to maintain that secrecy. What is that Mel Gibson tells Julia Roberts on that movie Conspiracy Theory. "If you can prove it then it's not a conspiracy."

    So, in short, evidences can be manipulated. A lot of things are not what they seem and the most successful conspiracies are the ones nobody ever talks about or knows about.
    A student said to his master: "You teach me fighting, but you talk about peace. How do you reconcile the two?" The master replied: "It is better to be a warrior in a garden than to be a gardener in a war." - unknown/Chinese

    http://www.typologycentral.com/forum...=61024&page=14

  4. #4
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    I was just thinking on this earlier tonight in bed.

    The two are indeed inseparable for us, evidence and the subsequent act of extrapolation - a condition inflicted by our status of having human minds.

    But which is greater? To undermine evidence is to disobey nature. This is why Tibetan Monks seclude themselves from the world; they are restricting their minds to the absolute most evidenced fundamentals of reality. Bad evidence is natural, but it isn't Nature's fault. 'Naw mean?

  5. #5
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    Usually when we speak of evidence and reason, we are speaking of scientific evidence and reasoning by inference.

    Of course there are other kinds of evidence, such as evidence given in court; and there are other kinds of reason, such as reasoning by deduction.

    The Enlightenment gave us scientific evidence and inferential reason. And scientific evidence and inferential reason gives us scientific fact.

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    Ratchet Ass Moon Fairy Comeback Girl's Avatar
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    But evidence alone is still better than no evidence. Ha! [/captainobvious]

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    royal member Rasofy's Avatar
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    @Poimandres

    To expand a bit, I think this Sherlock Holmes quote is insightful when it comes to letting evidence fool us:

    “It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts.”
    ― Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes
    Nobody likes being wrong - that's something we avoid at all costs.

    So once a person comes up with a theory or an idea, he/she starts looking for evidence to back it up.

    Then, providing there's some evidence that supports the theory, the person typically gets invested in the idea.

    So a bias develops, and the person begins to overlook evidence that suggests the opposite of what he/she believes.

    After a long process of retro feeding, the person basically alienates itself from the opposite evidence, which is now barely recognizable as such.

    And, BOOM!

    A bigot has been born.
    -----------------

    A man builds. A parasite asks 'Where is my share?'
    A man creates. A parasite says, 'What will the neighbors think?'
    A man invents. A parasite says, 'Watch out, or you might tread on the toes of God... '


    -----------------

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Comeback Girl View Post
    But evidence alone is still better than no evidence. Ha! [/captainobvious]
    Well, no evidence can be the best evidence of nonexistence, kind of like how if we explored everything in existence and no alien life showed up (which I highly doubt the nonexistence of), then we could deduce (and I would cry) that aliens don't exist.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rasofy View Post
    @Poimandres

    To expand a bit, I think this Sherlock Holmes quote is insightful when it comes to letting evidence fool us:



    Nobody likes being wrong - that's something we avoid at all costs.

    So once a person comes up with a theory or an idea, he/she starts looking for evidence to back it up.

    Then, providing there's some evidence that supports the theory, the person typically gets invested in the idea.

    So a bias develops, and the person begins to overlook evidence that suggests the opposite of what he/she believes.

    After a long process of retro feeding, the person basically alienates itself from the opposite evidence, which is now barely recognizable as such.

    And, BOOM!

    A bigot has been born.
    I agree very much with this; people only choose to see what appeals to their own inner sense of what should and shouldn't be true, without focusing enough on the counter-arguments and hard information against our original perceptions.

  9. #9
    royal member Rasofy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Poimandres View Post
    I agree very much with this; people only choose to see what appeals to their own inner sense of what should and shouldn't be true, without focusing enough on the counter-arguments and hard information against our original perceptions.
    exactly
    -----------------

    A man builds. A parasite asks 'Where is my share?'
    A man creates. A parasite says, 'What will the neighbors think?'
    A man invents. A parasite says, 'Watch out, or you might tread on the toes of God... '


    -----------------

  10. #10
    Wake, See, Sing, Dance Cellmold's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rasofy View Post
    @Poimandres

    To expand a bit, I think this Sherlock Holmes quote is insightful when it comes to letting evidence fool us:



    Nobody likes being wrong - that's something we avoid at all costs.

    So once a person comes up with a theory or an idea, he/she starts looking for evidence to back it up.

    Then, providing there's some evidence that supports the theory, the person typically gets invested in the idea.

    So a bias develops, and the person begins to overlook evidence that suggests the opposite of what he/she believes.

    After a long process of retro feeding, the person basically alienates itself from the opposite evidence, which is now barely recognizable as such.

    And, BOOM!

    A bigot has been born.
    This process happens a lot in typology and on this forum. This is especially evident in some of the theories people create based around certain types.

    Of course the hypocrisy here is that I myself am demonstrating a bias of my own against typology and how I assume people use it, but evidence proves me wrong so I don't apply it in an absolute.
    'One of (Lucas) Cranach's masterpieces, discussed by (Joseph) Koerner, is in it's self-referentiality the perfect expression of left-hemisphere emptiness and a precursor of post-modernism. There is no longer anything to point to beyond, nothing Other, so it points pointlessly to itself.' - Iain McGilChrist

    Suppose a tree fell down, Pooh, when we were underneath it?"
    "Suppose it didn't," said Pooh, after careful thought.
    Piglet was comforted by this.
    - A.A. Milne.

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