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  1. #11

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    You know I'm intrigued about this book now, although its not available in the UK, at least not from Amazon.co.uk, a similarly titled one is but its obscenely expensive, interesting that this guy Ellis was probably they founder of Cognitive Beharioural Therapy and deemed more important than Carl Rogers or Freud.

  2. #12
    philosopher wood nymph greenfairy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    And that is a different matter to what Ayn Rand describes as objectivism which is nothing more than a rationalisation for greed and a rich man's paradise writ large and equated with reality.

    And that was Marx's original literary critique of english political economy as genre fiction too.

    I'm not sure that religion or rationality are inventions, I dont and couldnt endorse a completely social constructionist view of the world, while subjectivism, intersubjectivity and other schools of thought like it are interesting they all, like post-modernism, fall into a similar trap and that is deciding that because certainty and truth are often difficult to assertain that they are therefore impossible and one "truth" is as good as another. That is were they are not all simply pseudo-intellectual semantic games.

    A lot of them are, and I still believe they are the bastard off spring of the historic "loss of nerve" by the left wing, the right wing have no doubts about their ideas, ideology and what is real, true, objective and that is in part why they've got the proper balls to call their ideology something like objectivism. Perhaps it was true of the left wing at one time, with marxism's so called "scientific socialism", but those days are long gone and anyone seriously asserting anything other than that would rightly be considered laughable.
    Nothing is objectively true other than the laws of nature. We are made of natural stuff and nature created the systems in which we live, and we are therefore subject to its laws. So insofar as humans are dependent on laws and systems to survive, there is truth to be known which approaches objectivity; like it is better to not be a liar to people one wishes to have a relationship with, and people tend to function best if they are healthy. But everything relating to human experience has a subjective quality to it.

    I think it is neither better to be too sure of one's convictions nor too unsure, as both objective and subjective components exist, and one can never 100% know the truth. If you are really sure of something incorrect, you are really wrong. But if you never decide on anything, nothing will get done.

  3. #13
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    I like it when out of print books become available again, is it a reprint or just one from the marketplace?

    What is the book about or would you like to say a little about it?
    This is an original hardback copy published in 1968 by the "major" publishing house known as "The Institute for Rational Living."
    [That's the copyright holder, not the publishing house.]

    Albert Ellis wrote the book as a response to the Branden-Ellis debate. "Prior to his excommunication, Nathaniel Branden and Albert Ellis staged a debate during which the pro-Objectivist audience booed, hissed, and laughed at Dr. Ellis whenever he 'made a telling point against one of their sacred tenets.' With the memory of this debate fresh in his mind Dr. Ellis wrote his virtual declaration of war against Objectivism."
    http://royhalliday.home.mindspring.com/ellis.htm
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  4. #14
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  5. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal+ View Post
    This is an original hardback copy published in 1968 by the "major" publishing house known as "The Institute for Rational Living."
    [That's the copyright holder, not the publishing house.]

    Albert Ellis wrote the book as a response to the Branden-Ellis debate. "Prior to his excommunication, Nathaniel Branden and Albert Ellis staged a debate during which the pro-Objectivist audience booed, hissed, and laughed at Dr. Ellis whenever he 'made a telling point against one of their sacred tenets.' With the memory of this debate fresh in his mind Dr. Ellis wrote his virtual declaration of war against Objectivism."
    http://royhalliday.home.mindspring.com/ellis.htm
    I'm not a fan of REBT or CBT but I think I like the sound of such a consolidated and serious attack against objectivism.

  6. #16
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    I'm not a fan of REBT or CBT but I think I like the sound of such a consolidated and serious attack against objectivism.
    Objectivism is a theory of individualism which has created a mind-set of dependence and a group of cult-like followers. The truth about a philosophy is revealed when it is applied in reality. And Ellis argues that Rand's bouts of depression reveals the psychological consequences of following a philosophy of ideals and perfectionism.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  7. #17
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    From Ayn Rand and the World She Made, by Anne Heller.

    “In 1987. . . [Peikoff's] second wife, Cynthia Pastor, wrote a poignant letter to Sidney Hook, her husband’s former academic adviser at NYU, pleading for help in finding her husband a post in which to exercise ‘his talent and passion for teaching’. . . Hook replied, not unkindly, that before recommending his former student for another teaching job, he would have to be satisfied that Peikoff would not inject, where inappropriate, Randian dogma into classroom instruction. ‘I made that a condition before giving him a couple of classes to teach at NYU many years ago,’ Hook wrote. ‘He didn’t live up to the condition. . . I still recommended him in hopes he would mature and try to follow the pedagogic model to which he had been exposed in my classes. . . I do not believe, concerned as he is with teaching the message, he is interested in students as individual human beings and helping them develop their own independent personalities.'"

    Leonard Peikoff was one of Ayn Rand's closest disciples.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  8. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal+ View Post
    Objectivism is a theory of individualism which has created a mind-set of dependence and a group of cult-like followers. The truth about a philosophy is revealed when it is applied in reality. And Ellis argues that Rand's bouts of depression reveals the psychological consequences of following a philosophy of ideals and perfectionism.
    Being a selfish capitalist pig will make you sick.

  9. #19
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Being a selfish capitalist pig will make you sick.
    Ellis was not an absolutist or extremist, nor did he think of anybody in terms of being a "pig" or whatever.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  10. #20
    reflecting pool Typh0n's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Being a selfish capitalist pig will make you sick.
    I think that being overly attacthed to any ideology, without felxibity or adaptability to reality will make you depressed, and Ayn Rand didnt seem like the person who had much adaptability to reality in her ideals. Still, Im not a psychologist so as to explain why exatcly she was depressed.

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