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  1. #21

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    @FineLine, I have, to my current satisfaction done what you suggest. I need to readjust and continuously improve, but my social skills for business is in good shape. If a business level of connection cured your loneliness, that is great. But, it has not cured mine, nor do I believe it has the capability to do so.
    ---
    Even here, I think somethings need to be pointed out. I think FIRO-b takes a more comprehensive approach than the first impressions web-site. In fact, I think the first impressions site shows one of the main failings of the notion of social skills used in psychology. That is that the study of social skills is really a study of the preferences of the current majority (or at least the current majority in control of business).

    To highlight this distinction, I can refer to the frustrations of many ENJs I've know in science and engineering circles, or graduate school (and I've had plenty of people complain to me directly about this. For some reason, people confide these things in me.). The complaints are similar to what introverts have towards the general public. The main difference is that these individuals claim that the particular community of people lack social skills. They neglect the fact that the "typical" engineer and scientist gets along without much frustration with the others. The more boisterous ones, however, are the ones having social problems in this context.

    I would say, in the above case, it is indeed the overly extroverted one that is lacking social skills in that context. The FIRO-b acknowledges this, the firstimpressions web site does not.

    But I think this should point out that, to some extent, most people you claim to have social skills, do not have social skills. What they do have instead is a natural ability to get along with the majority of their community which they happen to be similar to. If they had skills, they would be able to readjust to a more introverted community if needed, or a more idea oriented community if needed, or a more confrontational community if needed.

    Some do indeed have these skills--the ability to readjust. Perhaps you are one of them.
    ---

    From a superficial, business-level of skill in creating connections, I am continually improving. But I do not believe this process will help. Business is about meeting people to make transactions. You tend to meet people infrequently. You tend to not create a particularly deep connection with them. Business social skills are something I need to work on, but I believe them to be unrelated to my loneliness.

    For a contrast, consider the following web site's ideas:
    http://loveworksforyou.com/articles/...tes-dont-work/

    This article is from a web-site dedicated to forming intimate connections. Notice how many of the ideas are in direct opposition to the firstimpressionconsulting website (meant for business).

    Accept the past. Live for the present. Look forward to the future.
    Robot Fusion
    "As our island of knowledge grows, so does the shore of our ignorance." John Wheeler
    "[A] scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy." Richard Feynman
    "[P]etabytes of [] data is not the same thing as understanding emergent mechanisms and structures." Jim Crutchfield

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by ygolo View Post
    [...]For a contrast, consider the following web site's ideas:

    http://loveworksforyou.com/articles/...tes-dont-work/

    This article is from a web-site dedicated to forming intimate connections. Notice how many of the ideas are in direct opposition to the firstimpressionconsulting website (meant for business).
    LOL. That’s an ad for a singles dating website. That’s a whole different context.

    From reading the OP, I didn’t realize that the context of the thread would be dating advice for singles. As I read it, the OP was more about an existential problem: “I do a lot of social things, but for some reason I don’t really connect with people.” In that context, I think my advice about undergoing an “attitude adjustment” toward relating to people is legitimate, i.e., “A better understanding of social cues will help you switch from passive ‘guest mode’ to a more active ‘host mode,' resulting in better connections with people.”

    But if this thread is really about dating advice (or is going to take a turn in that direction), then I’m out of here. When males try to give each other dating advice on this message board, the threads tend to turn sour very quickly. There’s an anti-PUA crowd here that objects vociferously if they see anything that looks even remotely like pick-up advice.

    As for me personally, I just finalized a divorce and extracted myself from a 10-year marriage to a hoarder (see Fidelia’s blog for details if you’re interested). I’m single and happy to remain that way for the foreseeable future. I don't have any interest in giving or getting dating advice for singles.

    If you want dating advice, the web is loaded with it. Check websites of men’s magazines for dating tips. Or go to commercial dating advice sites like that one you linked. (I didn’t follow the links in your single's ad to the dating site itself, so I can't comment on the quality of that particular site or its advice.)

  3. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by FineLine View Post
    LOL. That’s an ad for a singles dating website. That’s a whole different context.

    From reading the OP, I didn’t realize that the context of the thread would be dating advice for singles. As I read it, the OP was more about an existential problem: “I do a lot of social things, but for some reason I don’t really connect with people.” In that context, I think my advice about undergoing an “attitude adjustment” toward relating to people is legitimate, i.e., “A better understanding of social cues will help you switch from passive ‘guest mode’ to a more active ‘host mode,' resulting in better connections with people.”

    But if this thread is really about dating advice (or is going to take a turn in that direction), then I’m out of here. When males try to give each other dating advice on this message board, the threads tend to turn sour very quickly. There’s an anti-PUA crowd here that objects vociferously if they see anything that looks even remotely like pick-up advice.

    As for me personally, I just finalized a divorce and extracted myself from a 10-year marriage to a hoarder (see Fidelia’s blog for details if you’re interested). I’m single and happy to remain that way for the foreseeable future. I don't have any interest in giving or getting dating advice for singles.

    If you want dating advice, the web is loaded with it. Check websites of men’s magazines for dating tips. Or go to commercial dating advice sites like that one you linked. (I didn’t follow the links in your single's ad to the dating site itself, so I can't comment on the quality of that particular site or its advice.)
    Haha. I was just showing that as an example of something on the opposite end of things. Business/transaction based socialization on one side, and authentic personal/vulnerable connections on the other.

    But that site is actually not a dating website. It offers no "matchmaking" services. Although, just like the firstimpressions site, they are selling a product, there is a lot of free stuff there. In fact, I think it is offering exactly the same services as the firstimpressions site you linked, but for a different facet of life.

    It is perhaps true that a lack of intimacy is the source of my loneliness, but, as my first post should have illustrated, having sex (or solely physical intimacy) did not satisfy this loneliness. So "dating" advice is insufficient as well. I know I have long odds (whatever the reasons may be), but I know how to overcome having long odds, and that's just trying enough times.

    Also, as I said before, I am not sad. I would even say that I am relatively happy (for me). But, lonely, I still am.

    Though, I will give your notion of guest mode vs. host mode some thought. Since I don't really think of myself as a guest or host in either of most situations, this is difficult to understand outside of an abstract level. Perhaps just think about this will aid in introspective recollection of social situations.

    I can already think about the FIRO-b dimensions and see if I do something too much or too little or particular actions.

    Accept the past. Live for the present. Look forward to the future.
    Robot Fusion
    "As our island of knowledge grows, so does the shore of our ignorance." John Wheeler
    "[A] scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy." Richard Feynman
    "[P]etabytes of [] data is not the same thing as understanding emergent mechanisms and structures." Jim Crutchfield

  4. #24
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FineLine View Post
    1. To me, the essence of this particular exercise is as an “attitude adjustment.” Imagine that you’re at a small gathering of friends hosted by one of your buddies. You sit patiently while your buddy lets people in the door, sets up food and drinks, and makes introductions; then you start to engage in a bit of small talk with some of the other guests. Now stop and imagine that same small gathering of friends, but you’re now the host: You’re the one greeting people at the door, getting people the refreshments they need, making introductions, etc. Same party, same friends, but you’re interacting with the other participants on a whole different level.
    An interesting example. I am an excellent host, when I choose to be. I do not like the role, though, because I find all my attention focused on meeting the needs of my guests, I am not able to relax and enjoy the evening myself. As soon as I settle into an enjoyable conversation with someone, it seems I must excuse myself to "play host" in some respect. The distinction is so great that I find playing host, or host-helper is a great way to avoid dealing with people when I am in a group I do not enjoy and have nothing in common with.

    Quote Originally Posted by FineLine View Post
    It divides social skills into seven headings; then under each heading it provides two tables of individual social skills: One table is for positive manifestations of skills, and the second table is for negative manifestations of skills, i.e., where the skill is done in excess or too sparingly.
    I agree with Ygolo on the distinction between business social skills and more personal, intimate (not necessarily romantic) social skills with friends and family. I am very good at the first, but then I am part of that community of scientists and engineers who generally get along fine with each other. The problem, if there even is one, is that I prefer to interact in this way everywhere. It makes sense, and feels natural. If social interaction includes the idea of accommodating to the preferences and patterns of others, who determines which way the accommodation goes? To take an example from one of the First Impressions lists, if one should "Speak at the same pace/volume as your conversational partner", and both partners are following this advice, whose natural pace and volume will predominate? Sometimes it seems as though that burden of accommodation rests entirely on me, with the other person unwilling to come even halfway. That is a big part of what makes most social interactions more bother than they are worth.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  5. #25
    Wake, See, Sing, Dance Cellmold's Avatar
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    The answer lies in my signature.

    Incidentally I despise script and rules based interactions. If I were to meet Queen Lizzy the second I would want to be able to talk about whatever at any time, perhaps opening with a "what ho queenie?".

    Social interaction needs to be natural and relaxed for me, I need a free arena in which to bounce.

    Experience has taught me that this really is a need not a want.
    'One of (Lucas) Cranach's masterpieces, discussed by (Joseph) Koerner, is in it's self-referentiality the perfect expression of left-hemisphere emptiness and a precursor of post-modernism. There is no longer anything to point to beyond, nothing Other, so it points pointlessly to itself.' - Iain McGilChrist

    Suppose a tree fell down, Pooh, when we were underneath it?"
    "Suppose it didn't," said Pooh, after careful thought.
    Piglet was comforted by this.
    - A.A. Milne.

  6. #26

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    Quote Originally Posted by AffirmitiveAnxiety View Post
    The answer lies in my signature.

    Incidentally I despise script and rules based interactions. If I were to meet Queen Lizzy the second I would want to be able to talk about whatever at any time, perhaps opening with a "what ho queenie?".

    Social interaction need to be natural and relaxed for me, I need a free arena in which to bounce.
    How does Rachel Carlson explain Ludwig Boltzmann, Edwin Armstrong, George Eastman, Alan Turing, Viktor Meyer and countless others?

    Accept the past. Live for the present. Look forward to the future.
    Robot Fusion
    "As our island of knowledge grows, so does the shore of our ignorance." John Wheeler
    "[A] scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy." Richard Feynman
    "[P]etabytes of [] data is not the same thing as understanding emergent mechanisms and structures." Jim Crutchfield

  7. #27
    Wake, See, Sing, Dance Cellmold's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ygolo View Post
    How does Rachel Carlson explain Ludwig Boltzmann, Edwin Armstrong, George Eastman, Alan Turing, Viktor Meyer and countless others?
    It was a throw away comment. People need to find their own fulfillment.
    'One of (Lucas) Cranach's masterpieces, discussed by (Joseph) Koerner, is in it's self-referentiality the perfect expression of left-hemisphere emptiness and a precursor of post-modernism. There is no longer anything to point to beyond, nothing Other, so it points pointlessly to itself.' - Iain McGilChrist

    Suppose a tree fell down, Pooh, when we were underneath it?"
    "Suppose it didn't," said Pooh, after careful thought.
    Piglet was comforted by this.
    - A.A. Milne.

  8. #28
    Member unicorncandy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ygolo View Post
    I am pretty sure loneliness has nothing to do with being alone, but rather feeling alone.

    What characterizes this mindset, and how does one change it?

    I should add that I have been feeling profoundly lonely for the past month, and have many times in the past felt just as lonely.

    I should also add that I've gone and done a lot of things to try to get rid of this loneliness: talking with friends (IRL), trying to deepen relationship with current friends, volunteering, going dancing, playing games, talking with family, chatting with strangers on the internet, I've even gone to clubs and been physically intimate with a woman.

    None of this has alleviated the profound sense of loneliness. The only bright spot was when one of my friends called out of the blue to try to cheer me up. She laid on the complements pretty thick, but I know her to be a very sincere person, so I know at least part of her believed what she said.

    What is going on?
    Memories from your childhood might be floating to the surface. You are probably in a little "pocket" of emotion. It is a sign that you need to process some feelings around maybe being misunderstood or alone in your childhood. Take time to yourself to work it out (journal, cry, listen to music, dance, make art, play an instrument, throw stones, punch pillows, scream by the train tracks, swim, take baths, etc.) and take care of yourself in healthy ways during that time (eat every 4 hours, relax, sleep well, drink water, yoga, watch a good movie...) . Don't be so hard on yourself, you'll get through it. Cognitive behavioral therapy is awesome too.
    "In matters of truth and justice, there is no difference between large and small problems, for issues concerning the treatment of people are all the same." - Einstein

  9. #29

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    Quote Originally Posted by unicorncandy View Post
    Memories from your childhood might be floating to the surface. You are probably in a little "pocket" of emotion. It is a sign that you need to process some feelings around maybe being misunderstood or alone in your childhood. Take time to yourself to work it out (journal, cry, listen to music, dance, make art, play an instrument, throw stones, punch pillows, scream by the train tracks, swim, take baths, etc.) and take care of yourself in healthy ways during that time (eat every 4 hours, relax, sleep well, drink water, yoga, watch a good movie...) . Don't be so hard on yourself, you'll get through it. Cognitive behavioral therapy is awesome too.
    Well, I don't think my memories from childhood ever went below surface.

    I was always one of the ones the bigger kids picked on from when my family moved to the U.S. up until high school. I was the smallest kid in class (both boys and girls) till my short lived growth spurt from 13 to 15, and even then I was among the smallest. Then from high school through college, I had my small group of nerdy friends, but knew that outside of out little pocket we were the butt of many peoples jokes.

    Perhaps, I transferred my reactions to the physical abuse from my peers as a child to the verbal abuse as an adolescent, to a more encompassing portion of my reactions to people in adulthood. IDK. I am just trying to see what you might mean.

    Accept the past. Live for the present. Look forward to the future.
    Robot Fusion
    "As our island of knowledge grows, so does the shore of our ignorance." John Wheeler
    "[A] scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy." Richard Feynman
    "[P]etabytes of [] data is not the same thing as understanding emergent mechanisms and structures." Jim Crutchfield

  10. #30
    Member unicorncandy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ygolo View Post
    Well, I don't think my memories from childhood ever went below surface.

    I was always one of the ones the bigger kids picked on from when my family moved to the U.S. up until high school. I was the smallest kid in class (both boys and girls) till my short lived growth spurt from 13 to 15, and even then I was among the smallest. Then from high school through college, I had my small group of nerdy friends, but knew that outside of out little pocket we were the butt of many peoples jokes.

    Perhaps, I transferred my reactions to the physical abuse from my peers as a child to the verbal abuse as an adolescent, to a more encompassing portion of my reactions to people in adulthood. IDK. I am just trying to see what you might mean.
    Yes, that is exactly right. The trauma of physical and emotional abuse is actually stuck in your body, because that is where we hold it. When you are in a situation that reminds you of the moments just before, during, or after you were abused and all the thoughts of people in and around that, you might get "triggered" and you might feel lonely and vulnerable like you did back then. What you need to do is strengthen your core sense of self and get rid of all the negative beliefs that the abuse "taught" you about life.

    I have been working through my childhood abuse in a PTSD workbook and it helped a lot. After I worked on a section I would crack my neck or feet (for some weird reason, I used to dance ballet after I was abused) and feel like I had released something huge. My life perspective has changed since doing so. It brought me to some really dark places, so I ended up getting a therapist who specializes in EMDR, trauma, and PTSD. It has only been a few weeks and my life perspective has changed so much. I think the point is to remember and learn how to overcome the memories and integrate them into your current life and state of mind in a positive way. Suppressing the memories hasn't worked thus far for me (I'm 28), but since working through it, I've seen such a change in my response to life.

    If you work through your trauma, do it with a support group or a therapist, because it can get really dark and you will need to cry and release it out of your body. I don't know why people think mental issues are some metaphysical thing. The brain is part of the body and trauma gets stuck in the body as well. Anyway, good luck with whatever you decide to do.
    "In matters of truth and justice, there is no difference between large and small problems, for issues concerning the treatment of people are all the same." - Einstein

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