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  1. #11
    redundant descriptor netzealot's Avatar
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    Loneliness has everything to do with being alone. Being misunderstood by those around you is often confused as being alone, however in a very real way people create a condition of loneliness by their mindset so yes, loneliness and certain a frame of mind are closely related.

    The condition is deeply rooted in belief, and how much space your beliefs leave for other people to share in your experiences. For instance, your friend said things which you somewhat believe, and in that way you have made space for them and allowed to the same extent the sense of being alone to dissipate.

    The behaviors of belief which creates the condition of loneliness and the feeling of being alone because most people misunderstand you are closely related because many times we maintain a requirement that somebody understand us before we make space for them in our lives. Someone who understands others will never feel alone. Loneliness is as common today as the popular suggestion to always look inwardly for answers and, basically, pay more attention to yourself rather than others. The result is mutual isolation and the feeling of loneliness is inevitable.

  2. #12
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    "Lonely" and "Callan"

    Quote Originally Posted by ygolo View Post
    You may be right. Does the internet count?
    Loneliness is emotionally painful. So sometimes we do what we can to avoid the pain. But sometimes it's best to acknowledge the pain. It doesn't make it go away, but it is less likely to contaminate the rest of our life.

    Wolves howl with loneliness, sometimes they just whimper on a cold winter's night.

    There is a character called, "Lonely", in the TV series, "Callan".

    "Lonely", is the epitome of loneliness - we can feel his pain and see how his loneliness has debilitated him.

  3. #13
    Senior Member JivinJeffJones's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ygolo View Post
    Well, what counts as "sharing" with others? Some of my close friends are quite aware of the way I am feeling (that is why one of them called me when she got back from a trip). But this notion of "holding back" vs. "sharing my true self" doesn't make sense to me. I don't consciously do any regulation of the sort I imagine you mean (perhaps you can clarify). I don't say to myself, "I will hold back", nor do I say to myself "I need to share my true self."
    I guess an easy example of holding back would be if you significantly tailor how you present yourself depending on who you're talking to. Are you focused mainly on being agreeable to them and on their reactions? Are you, as Fineline put it, doing your best to mirror them? That you forget yourself in these interactions could be read two ways. Either you forget your inhibitions and are completely free in your interactions or you are so aware of the other person/people that it inhibits your consciousness-of-self entirely. Self-expression or self-suppression. If the latter then it certainly doesn't seem conducive to genuine, satisfying connections.

  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by ygolo View Post
    lol, Fineline. I've been on this site since 2008. I am surprised you don't remember me.

    I've been an APT member in the past and worked out all my temperament, interaction styles, cognitive functions, enneagram, socionics style, flavor of type, life themes, and on and on... At this point, I am glad that I did it, but mainly because I understand now how little insight one gains through this process (and how much "boxing-in", self-handicapping, and self-stereotyping this process can do as well). I keep "ISFP" just for kicks.
    I do remember you, and I was surprised that you are identifying as ISFP. But I’m also surprised at how social you’ve become recently. I remembered you in the past as being much less social. So one way or the other, it seems that you’ve loosened up a bit across the years.

    Quote Originally Posted by ygolo View Post
    Like I told JJJ, I am not sure. I really have little introspective recollection of my interactions with others.


    Well, what counts as "sharing" with others? Some of my close friends are quite aware of the way I am feeling (that is why one of them called me when she got back from a trip). But this notion of "holding back" vs. "sharing my true self" doesn't make sense to me. I don't consciously do any regulation of the sort I imagine you mean (perhaps you can clarify). I don't say to myself, "I will hold back", nor do I say to myself "I need to share my true self."
    Fine, let’s work with that.

    There are lots of ways one could tackle the issue of how to “share more” or “connect better” in social interactions. I already mentioned the FIRO-B; it’s something I’m playing around with myself and finding useful.

    The FIRO-B measures whether you’re weak or strong in six different areas of social interaction. See the attached graphic.* The bottom three areas describe more passive types of interaction; the top three areas describe more active types of interaction.

    IMG.jpg

    You indicate that you’re not much impressed with test results. Fine, don’t take the test. Just look at the FIRO-B graphic and pick out an area or a couple skills and start working on them in your social interactions with others. That’s basically what I do.

    In my case, I tend to have weak-to-moderate skills in the bottom three areas, and pretty much nonexistent skills in the top three areas. So I keep that graphic pinned on a wall in my exercise room. While working out, I read through the checklists of the top three areas and mull over ways I can implement them at an upcoming social interaction.

    For example, I read, “Involves others in projects and meetings” or “Shares personal opinions or private feelings about issues,” and it prompts me to think about ongoing projects and interests in my life: Is there anything I can share with people? Even if it’s just talking about the weather or an anecdote of something that happened when I was mowing the lawn. Even if it’s just current events: If I’m interested in something happening in the news, maybe I should broach the subject in conversation; maybe someone else is also interested in the subject.

    And that’s it. I just use the graphic as a system of prompts to plan for an upcoming social event. Over time, the prompts stimulate enough ideas that I have to make notes of all the ideas and then review the notes before the event itself.

    Without the prompts and notes, I would probably sit like a bump on a log and let others take the lead in the conversation. After reviewing the prompts, on the other hand, I’m reminded to do the little courtesies: For example, take an interest in what others are saying and ask them to expand upon the subject; or compliment them on their accomplishments and share my own accomplishments in turn; and so on.

    These are the ways that you “share more” and “connect better.” It’s a struggle at first; maybe you would prefer to start with the easier skills listed in the bottom three areas first. Either way, these are very specific skills and strategies for improving interactions with others.

    Think of your friend phoning you and making you feel better. That’s something you could do to others in turn. You could take the lead in forging stronger bonds between yourself and your friends. Just print out the graphic and then take a couple of these skills and start working on them.

    Don’t expect immediate results; it’s a long-term project. But it sounds like you’ve been making an effort to get out and socialize more. So maybe this is something you would consider working on next, as a way to “take it to the next level.”

    *From “Integrating the FIRO-B with the MBTI” by Eugene R. Schnell and Allen L. Hammer, as reprinted in “Developing Leaders: Research and Applications in Psychological Type and Leadership Development,” edited by Catherine Fitzgerald and Linda K. Kirby.

  5. #15
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FineLine View Post
    For example, I read, “Involves others in projects and meetings” or “Shares personal opinions or private feelings about issues,” and it prompts me to think about ongoing projects and interests in my life: Is there anything I can share with people? Even if it’s just talking about the weather or an anecdote of something that happened when I was mowing the lawn. Even if it’s just current events: If I’m interested in something happening in the news, maybe I should broach the subject in conversation; maybe someone else is also interested in the subject.

    And that’s it. I just use the graphic as a system of prompts to plan for an upcoming social event. Over time, the prompts stimulate enough ideas that I have to make notes of all the ideas and then review the notes before the event itself.
    This sounds very artificial and mechanical. Sometimes I do find myself in situations where it makes sense to apply such techniques. I always feel fake doing it, though, and find the interactions ultimately empty, even if I agree with the utility of acting this way. I generally try to avoid social situations in which I have to resort to running scripts. On the other hand, I don't complain of loneliness.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  6. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by LevelZeroHero View Post
    Loneliness has everything to do with being alone. Being misunderstood by those around you is often confused as being alone, however in a very real way people create a condition of loneliness by their mindset so yes, loneliness and certain a frame of mind are closely related.

    The condition is deeply rooted in belief, and how much space your beliefs leave for other people to share in your experiences. For instance, your friend said things which you somewhat believe, and in that way you have made space for them and allowed to the same extent the sense of being alone to dissipate.

    The behaviors of belief which creates the condition of loneliness and the feeling of being alone because most people misunderstand you are closely related because many times we maintain a requirement that somebody understand us before we make space for them in our lives. Someone who understands others will never feel alone. Loneliness is as common today as the popular suggestion to always look inwardly for answers and, basically, pay more attention to yourself rather than others. The result is mutual isolation and the feeling of loneliness is inevitable.
    I don't believe I understand. Mainly the part about being misunderstood. Being constantly misunderstood can contribute to lonliness, I am sure. But I am used to clarifying myself. My thoughts and intentions are often misunderstood. But usually, I can get past this.

    In what way are you using the word "alone" or the words "making space". Can you clarify?

    I actually did not believe the things my friend said. But I knew her to be sincere. So I believed she believed some of what she said. What made me feel good was just hearing her voice at that time, and knowing that she cared about me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mole View Post
    Loneliness is emotionally painful. So sometimes we do what we can to avoid the pain. But sometimes it's best to acknowledge the pain. It doesn't make it go away, but it is less likely to contaminate the rest of our life.

    Wolves howl with loneliness, sometimes they just whimper on a cold winter's night.

    There is a character called, "Lonely", in the TV series, "Callan".

    "Lonely", is the epitome of loneliness - we can feel his pain and see how his loneliness has debilitated him.
    Trust me. I acknowledge the pain. I've never see Callan. I may check to see if it is available on Netflix when I get home.

    Quote Originally Posted by JivinJeffJones View Post
    I guess an easy example of holding back would be if you significantly tailor how you present yourself depending on who you're talking to. Are you focused mainly on being agreeable to them and on their reactions? Are you, as Fineline put it, doing your best to mirror them? That you forget yourself in these interactions could be read two ways. Either you forget your inhibitions and are completely free in your interactions or you are so aware of the other person/people that it inhibits your consciousness-of-self entirely. Self-expression or self-suppression. If the latter then it certainly doesn't seem conducive to genuine, satisfying connections.
    I don't do any conscious tayloring of how I present myself, unless I actually have a presentation to give. This is usually in a work/school setting, however. I am not focused on anything in particular in most social situations. Most of the time, I just like being there. Uninhibited doesn't seem accurate at all. Neither does self-suppressed. The best I can describe it is an mix of anxiety, and excitement to varying degrees. Like I said, I don't have much of an introspective recollection of these situations.

    Quote Originally Posted by FineLine View Post
    I do remember you, and I was surprised that you are identifying as ISFP. But I’m also surprised at how social you’ve become recently. I remembered you in the past as being much less social. So one way or the other, it seems that you’ve loosened up a bit across the years.
    It's actually not that recent. When I joined this site, I was already in a pretty long depressive episode. So you may have a different image of me because of that. I've come to believe that despite its potential, typology does more damage than good. Perhaps the main way it does good is that it provides another way for people to congregate and get to know each other over a common excuse. So ISFP might as well be XXXX.

    Quote Originally Posted by FineLine View Post
    Fine, let’s work with that.

    There are lots of ways one could tackle the issue of how to “share more” or “connect better” in social interactions. I already mentioned the FIRO-B; it’s something I’m playing around with myself and finding useful.

    The FIRO-B measures whether you’re weak or strong in six different areas of social interaction. See the attached graphic.* The bottom three areas describe more passive types of interaction; the top three areas describe more active types of interaction.

    IMG.jpg

    You indicate that you’re not much impressed with test results. Fine, don’t take the test. Just look at the FIRO-B graphic and pick out an area or a couple skills and start working on them in your social interactions with others. That’s basically what I do.

    In my case, I tend to have weak-to-moderate skills in the bottom three areas, and pretty much nonexistent skills in the top three areas. So I keep that graphic pinned on a wall in my exercise room. While working out, I read through the checklists of the top three areas and mull over ways I can implement them at an upcoming social interaction.

    For example, I read, “Involves others in projects and meetings” or “Shares personal opinions or private feelings about issues,” and it prompts me to think about ongoing projects and interests in my life: Is there anything I can share with people? Even if it’s just talking about the weather or an anecdote of something that happened when I was mowing the lawn. Even if it’s just current events: If I’m interested in something happening in the news, maybe I should broach the subject in conversation; maybe someone else is also interested in the subject.

    And that’s it. I just use the graphic as a system of prompts to plan for an upcoming social event. Over time, the prompts stimulate enough ideas that I have to make notes of all the ideas and then review the notes before the event itself.

    Without the prompts and notes, I would probably sit like a bump on a log and let others take the lead in the conversation. After reviewing the prompts, on the other hand, I’m reminded to do the little courtesies: For example, take an interest in what others are saying and ask them to expand upon the subject; or compliment them on their accomplishments and share my own accomplishments in turn; and so on.

    These are the ways that you “share more” and “connect better.” It’s a struggle at first; maybe you would prefer to start with the easier skills listed in the bottom three areas first. Either way, these are very specific skills and strategies for improving interactions with others.

    Think of your friend phoning you and making you feel better. That’s something you could do to others in turn. You could take the lead in forging stronger bonds between yourself and your friends. Just print out the graphic and then take a couple of these skills and start working on them.

    Don’t expect immediate results; it’s a long-term project. But it sounds like you’ve been making an effort to get out and socialize more. So maybe this is something you would consider working on next, as a way to “take it to the next level.”

    *From “Integrating the FIRO-B with the MBTI” by Eugene R. Schnell and Allen L. Hammer, as reprinted in “Developing Leaders: Research and Applications in Psychological Type and Leadership Development,” edited by Catherine Fitzgerald and Linda K. Kirby.
    I was aware of the FIRO-b, and even did pretty much what you said. All-in-all, growth oriented typology may be less harmful than entity oriented typology. But even there, if the supposed directions of "growth" are based on artifice, the results can be damaging.

    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    This sounds very artificial and mechanical. Sometimes I do find myself in situations where it makes sense to apply such techniques. I always feel fake doing it, though, and find the interactions ultimately empty, even if I agree with the utility of acting this way. I generally try to avoid social situations in which I have to resort to running scripts. On the other hand, I don't complain of loneliness.
    Part of me agrees with you. But, unlike you, I do complain of loneliness.

    Accept the past. Live for the present. Look forward to the future.
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  7. #17
    Senior Member Pinker85's Avatar
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    Pie.
    "My comrades and my beloved, upon your way you shall meet men with hoofs; give them your wings. And men with horns; give them wreaths of laurel. And men with claws; give them petals for fingers. And men with forked tongues; give them honey words." --Kahlil Gibran, The Garden of The Prophet

  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by ygolo View Post
    It's actually not that recent. When I joined this site, I was already in a pretty long depressive episode. So you may have a different image of me because of that. I've come to believe that despite its potential, typology does more damage than good. Perhaps the main way it does good is that it provides another way for people to congregate and get to know each other over a common excuse. So ISFP might as well be XXXX.
    Yeah, I remember when you were in your depressive phase. I’m delighted to see that you’ve shaken that depression phase off or gotten past it or whatever.

    As for the positives or negatives of MBTI typology, I won’t comment; that gets argued enough in other threads.

    Quote Originally Posted by ygolo View Post
    I was aware of the FIRO-b, and even did pretty much what you said. All-in-all, growth oriented typology may be less harmful than entity oriented typology. But even there, if the supposed directions of "growth" are based on artifice, the results can be damaging.
    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    This sounds very artificial and mechanical. Sometimes I do find myself in situations where it makes sense to apply such techniques. I always feel fake doing it, though, and find the interactions ultimately empty, even if I agree with the utility of acting this way. I generally try to avoid social situations in which I have to resort to running scripts. On the other hand, I don't complain of loneliness.
    Quote Originally Posted by ygolo View Post
    Part of me agrees with you. But, unlike you, I do complain of loneliness.
    My usual disclaimer applies: I’m just throwing out some ideas that work for me. If they don’t work for you or you don’t need the help, then ignore the input.

    My example of use of the graphic from the FIRO-B is just an example. It’s what works for me, so I throw it out there to let people know that solutions to the problem exist. Naturally, it’s up to each person to find out what particular approach/skill set works best for them.

    Let me expand a bit, or clarify a couple points.

    1. To me, the essence of this particular exercise is as an “attitude adjustment.” Imagine that you’re at a small gathering of friends hosted by one of your buddies. You sit patiently while your buddy lets people in the door, sets up food and drinks, and makes introductions; then you start to engage in a bit of small talk with some of the other guests. Now stop and imagine that same small gathering of friends, but you’re now the host: You’re the one greeting people at the door, getting people the refreshments they need, making introductions, etc. Same party, same friends, but you’re interacting with the other participants on a whole different level.

    2.That’s what the FIRO-B exercise does for me. In moving from the lower 3 categories to the upper 3 categories, I start relating to people in a whole different way: I switch from “guest mode” in my relations with people to “host mode.” Is this transition an antidote for loneliness? Yes it is, at least for me. When I used to attend social events in “guest mode,” I often came away feeling dissatisfied with the event; it was a fight to do small talk, and the connections just weren’t happening most times. Nowadays when I attend events in “host mode,” I often come away pleasantly burnt-out but kind of excited that I’ve connected well with the people around me and gotten to know them. I even take notes afterward so that i can remember to ask people next time I see them how this or that project worked out, etc.

    3. Is there artifice involved? Certainly. But that’s the way it is when learning any new skill set. For example, when I first moved into managerial roles, it wasn’t a good fit for me at all. Each day I had to psych myself up for the role, think of how other managers handled things, and consult checklists and management tools for help. But once I did it long enough, I loved the role. The role kind of burned me out by the end of the day, but I loved putting it back on again the next morning and playing that role again day after day. I wouldn’t have gone back to being the low man on the totem pole for anything.

    Same with switching from “guest mode” to “host mode.” I love that “host mode.” It still helps me to review the FIRO-B graphic before social events and plan ahead some ideas for interactions and conversation; that is, the “host mode” hasn’t become totally natural to me. But I wouldn’t go back to “guest mode” for anything. Sometimes I get caught in a social situation where I haven’t been able to prepare and where circumstances conspire to keep me stuck in “guest mode”: reactive, passive, and waiting for others to make the first move. At such times I grit my teeth and try to visualize the FIRO-B graphic: I want to get back into “host mode”!

    So yeah: Artifice or not, it helps.

    4) There are other approaches (other than the FIRO-B graphic, that is) for being exposed to this particular social skill set; for example, one could focus on a particular skill like mirroring and dissect that as a starting point. Also there are other skill sets that can be learned: Just for example, when it comes to dealing with people, Fe and Te users can often achieve much the same result with entirely different skill sets. There is more than one way to skin a cat. So I just want to reiterate:

    My example of use of the graphic from the FIRO-B is just an example. It’s what works for me, so I throw it out there to let people know that solutions to the problem exist. Naturally, it’s up to each person to find out what particular approach/skill set works best for them.

  9. #19
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FineLine View Post
    4) There are other approaches (other than the FIRO-B graphic, that is) for being exposed to this particular social skill set; for example, one could focus on a particular skill like mirroring and dissect that as a starting point. Also there are other skill sets that can be learned: Just for example, when it comes to dealing with people, Fe and Te users can often achieve much the same result with entirely different skill sets. There is more than one way to skin a cat. So I just want to reiterate:

    My example of use of the graphic from the FIRO-B is just an example. It’s what works for me, so I throw it out there to let people know that solutions to the problem exist. Naturally, it’s up to each person to find out what particular approach/skill set works best for them.
    Do these other approaches cover the same basic skill space as the FIRO-B chart you posted? In other words, do you see a basic minimum social skills set that everyone needs to develop, whether using this method or another?
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    Do these other approaches cover the same basic skill space as the FIRO-B chart you posted? [...]
    In making those comments, I was just extrapolating from the principle that the rich and successful of the world include all 16 MBTI types. For example: Who has better people-handling skills: the Fe therapist or the Te drill sergeant? There’s more than one way to skin a cat.

    A tangent: I lived in open squad-bays for years in the Marines. I had a love-hate relationship with open squad-bays: There was no privacy (hated that), but it was edifying to live cheek-by-jowl with so many different people and see all the different ways they did common things. Give a number of people the same exact same task to do, and they would find a dozen different ways to accomplish it successfully.

    One of the most useful things I learned was by watching and imitating the slackers and reprobates in the platoon: They worked quickly and poorly, and did only enough to get by. Time and time again I thought they would fail at the tasks they were assigned, but in the end they slid on by, no worse off than the rest. A light bulb went on in my head. I quit my perfectionist ways and instantly achieved greater productivity.

    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    [...] In other words, do you see a basic minimum social skills set that everyone needs to develop, whether using this method or another?
    I’m not aware of any standardized list of that nature. I supposed it depends on how one defines “basic minimum social skills.” FIRO-B is actually workplace/management-oriented; mainly I like that FIRO-B graphic for its conciseness.

    I suppose that one could make up a list of the cognitive functions that are tested for in EQ tests or something along that line. Anyway, it’s an interesting thought.

    Along the same line, the following website is interesting: http://www.firstimpressionsconsultin...ooktables.html

    It divides social skills into seven headings; then under each heading it provides two tables of individual social skills: One table is for positive manifestations of skills, and the second table is for negative manifestations of skills, i.e., where the skill is done in excess or too sparingly.

    For example, under Heading 2 “Showing Interest,” the subject of “Asking questions” appears as both a positive behavior and a negative behavior. In the positive table: If you ask questions of your conversational partner, you will appear interested and attracted by the other person. By contrast, in the negative table: If you hold the floor by asking too many questions, you will probably think that you’re appearing interested and attracted, but in fact the other person will probably be perceiving you as private and controlling.

    And so on.

    It's an interesting site, and worth poking around. But it’s hardly “basic or minimum”; instead it’s kind of comprehensive and exhaustive.

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