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  1. #11
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Radical feminists wouldnt agree, they believe that the dichotomy is real and reinforce it, suggesting that there are male and female "identified" individuals and any woman who is "male identified" is a traitor, Thatcher or Rand would be male identified females.

    It is a very black and white dichotomy with the valourous and villified seperated on the basis of sex but its interesting for how it conceptualises difference and I actually think its fine to do that, I think stereotypes are stupid, a lot of prejudices are and prejudiced judgement is often bad judgement but there's been a lot of interesting, even if you dont agree you surely can acknowledge it is worthy of consideration and thought, writing about prejudice, intuition and practical reasoning.

    For instance, you may not believe in making judgements yourself on the basis of prejudice but perhaps you should know and be prepared for the reality that others will, to believe otherwise is naive. I'll give you an example from here, I am not sectarian, at least not in any real down and dirty hateful, harmful or what I would consider violent sense, although I am not fool enough to believe that thinking that way affords me with any protection what so ever from places or people who are sectarian. I learned that the hard way in my teens, the real hard way and I properly feared for my safety when I "learned" that lesson.

    So I think that there's a role for better understanding through realpolitik, in relation to sexism and sexual politics as much as anything else, any minority-majority or group political division.
    I think radical feminists are too obscure and trivial in their impact for me to bothr considering. The concerns I raise reflect what I see of the more moderate sort who like to take some time out of their day to post on a feminist interest blog or something. It appears to me to have become a prevailing flaw in feminist thinking.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    I dont think there's anything shameful about being male or female, someones sex alone shouldnt afford unfair privileges and if it didnt I think there'd be less of a tendency towards the adoption of (or villification of) one or another set of traits and people could be themselves.

    That said I think the best examples of feminism ARE those which engage in open competition, ie Amazons, for instance which will compete on the basis of strength with men.
    Why?
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  2. #12
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    I think radical feminists are too obscure and trivial in their impact for me to bothr considering. The concerns I raise reflect what I see of the more moderate sort who like to take some time out of their day to post on a feminist interest blog or something. It appears to me to have become a prevailing flaw in feminist thinking.
    I'm unsure what passes as radical in the US, although that said most of what exists in the US as feminism would be considered radical in contrast to what has been considered feminism in the UK or EU. I'm not considering radical feminism to be things like political lesbianism or the SCUM manifesto or anything so exclusive as that, Kate Millet's book Sexual Politics and her other books would be considered radical feminism as I define it. I think its relevent but maybe you dont.

    Why?
    You mean why is privilege a bad idea or why I think feminism such as the Amazons is a good idea?

  3. #13
    Senior Member Robopop's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    There's an irony involved in this you know because most of the criticism of feminism is possible because feminism provided the intellectual tools to do so.

    I'm not sure that the ideology is hogwash anymore than a lot of other theories, there's a lot of ideology triumphing over rigorous scholarship.
    You're right about there being a lot of hogwash in academia, the social constructionist side of feminism veers to far on the nurture side and the gender essentialist feminism veers to far on the nature side. Most feminist though accept a social constructionist sociological perspective, it's funny how some feminists totally reject evolutionary psychology based solely on it's social implications.
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  4. #14
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    You mean why is privilege a bad idea or why I think feminism such as the Amazons is a good idea?
    Why do you advocate women competing with men on strength?

    Quote Originally Posted by Robopop View Post
    Most feminist though accept a social constructionist sociological perspective, it's funny how some feminists totally reject evolutionary psychology based solely on it's social implications.
    Yes, it's pretty sad to take that path when it's so easy to reject evolutionary psychology for the fact that it's a pile of rubbish.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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  5. #15
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robopop View Post
    You're right about there being a lot of hogwash in academia, the social constructionist side of feminism veers to far on the nurture side and the gender essentialist feminism veers to far on the nature side. Most feminist though accept a social constructionist sociological perspective, it's funny how some feminists totally reject evolutionary psychology based solely on it's social implications.
    I think a lot of damage has been done by social constructionism and bad sociology to be honest. There probably was some seriously good intent in the originating of those theories but in my experience there's definitely a lot of pseudo-intellectualism among the audiences absorbing and spreading them now.

    A lot of the theories like that can only be properly understood in reference to the contexts they arose in response to, properly understood I think A LOT of it arose as a result of, or in response to, what I continue to think of as the left/opposition/alternative, often refered to as "critical", camp's historic "loss of nerve" in the face of evidence and desperate struggle to remain relevent.

    Because it was discovered that universal or objective conclusions or insights were/are notoriously difficult there was a rush to embrace uncritically relativism, diversity, disparity, all those other jargon ridden hall marks and its done a lot of harm.

  6. #16
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    Why do you advocate women competing with men on strength?
    Its my view of egalitarianism generally, I think that people should claim equality where it exists in fact, strength's only one example.

    Yes, it's pretty sad to take that path when it's so easy to reject evolutionary psychology for the fact that it's a pile of rubbish.
    You're very congent in your criticism of evolutionary psychology there.

  7. #17
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Its my view of egalitarianism generally, I think that people should claim equality where it exists in fact, strength's only one example.
    In some kind of reverse universe, what would it look like for a man to compete to claim femininity?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    You're very congent in your criticism of evolutionary psychology there.
    I can and have extensively described my issues with evolutionary psychology.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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  8. #18
    Senior Member Robopop's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    I think feminism has made too little effort to change the stereotypical concept of men and masculinity. The ability of feminist goals to be achieved will depend in part on altering expectations of men as well as women. We hear about things like rape culture, but what's the response? The solution to everything is to empower women more. Empowering women moer should be done, but other things can be done and need to be done at the same time and come at no expense to the other aims. There should be as much focus on men being ability to take on allegedly feminine qualities as there is for women to take on allegedly masculine ones. Women breaking the mold alone will not result in victory.
    Women have historically had more limited agency in the public realm(to varying degrees of course) but to truly change that we have to not only focus on men's expectations of women(sexual objectification) but also focus on women's expectations of men as well. Women have a fundamental influence on the motivations of men but feminist ironically objectify women by down playing their responsibility in perpetuating gender roles on men while overemphasizing the almost supernatural mind control men have on women's thoughts and motivations.
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  9. #19
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    In some kind of reverse universe, what would it look like for a man to compete to claim femininity?
    Why do you need a reverse universe? There are domains or competencies in which women are believed to have the edge, men can compete on that if they are interested.

    Or people could be themselves. Of all the feminisms the iFeminists or Individual Feminists are among the ones I think most legitimate too.

    My point about feminism, or any of the so called "liberation ideologies", is that there needs to be some correlate or relationship between equality as an abstract theory and equality in fact, do you understand? Otherwise for the either historically or presently dominant group and subordinate group equality will most likely be an imposition resisted or concession given, both of which are going to disatisfactory to each.

    I can and have extensively described my issues with evolutionary psychology.
    Oh OK. I havent read that.

  10. #20
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robopop View Post
    Women have historically had more limited agency in the public realm(to varying degrees of course) but to truly change that we have to not only focus on men's expectations of women(sexual objectification) but also focus on women's expectations of men as well. Women have a fundamental influence on the motivations of men but feminist ironically objectify women by down playing their responsibility in perpetuating gender roles on men while overemphasizing the almost supernatural mind control men have on women's thoughts and motivations.
    WAIT! WHAT?!

    If there's some super secret trick to getting them to do what you want its about time someone catched me up already.

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