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  1. #41
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JivinJeffJones View Post
    I don't think this follows at all. I think the soul chooses corruption, and sinful deeds ensue. The deeds themselves don't corrupt it.
    But then we would be accountable for every sin that could possibly be conceived. I suppose that this is what Jesus meant when he said that (and this is a rough paraphrasing) the man who has conceived murderous thoughts has already committed them.
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  2. #42
    Senior Member JivinJeffJones's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Owl View Post
    If a human did either of the above without a body, it would be a supernatural event.
    Hmm, and Christians don't believe in supernatural events.

    Quote Originally Posted by Owl View Post
    Say I had a 30 year old man who's been in a sensory deprivation tank from birth in my basement. If I pulled him out the day after his 30th birthday, and he knew how to speak at all, or do basic arithmetic, then that would be a miracle. Similarly, if he started to telekinetically move the furniture around in my basement, that would be supernatural.
    I just don't see why you should think disembodied souls are devoid of means of perception (or expression). Didn't Moses and Elijah talk to Jesus? Didn't the spirit of Samuel talk to Saul?

  3. #43
    Senior Member JivinJeffJones's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    But then we would be accountable for every sin that could possibly be conceived. I suppose that this is what Jesus meant when he said that (and this is a rough paraphrasing) the man who has conceived murderous thoughts has already committed them.
    The action of choice belongs to the soul alone. The body just acts out that choice. The choice itself is the sin.


    Of course, I suppose you could argue that you have people who are biologically insane. A few chemicals here or there and a violent disposition is formed. Or a depressive one. I don't know too much about it. Does that transmit to the soul?

  4. #44
    Wonderer Samuel De Mazarin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JivinJeffJones View Post
    I think the soul chooses corruption, and sinful deeds ensue. The deeds themselves don't corrupt it.

    ....

    The action of choice belongs to the soul alone. The body just acts out that choice. The choice itself is the sin.


    Of course, I suppose you could argue that you have people who are biologically insane. A few chemicals here or there and a violent disposition is formed. Or a depressive one. I don't know too much about it. Does that transmit to the soul?

    BUT THEN... if the body cannot corrupt the soul, we're back to the question that began this whole thread: how can original sin be transmitted?!?!?! Original sin is crucial to the Biblical conception of life and the after-life.
    Madman's azure lie: a zen miasma ruled.

    Realize us, Madman!

    I razed a slum, Amen.

    ...............................................

  5. #45
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JivinJeffJones View Post
    The moment of choice belongs to the soul alone. The body just acts out that choice. The choice itself is the sin.


    Of course, I suppose you could argue that you have people who are biologically insane. A few chemicals here or there and a violent disposition is formed. Or a depressive one. I don't know too much about it. Does that transmit to the soul?
    I think this would bring the argument into the realm of "free will". I remember Bertrand Russell giving the example of a person with rabies, who out of his affliction is compelled to bite people, quite apart from whether or not he would consciously choose to do so.
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  6. #46
    Wonderer Samuel De Mazarin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Owl View Post
    It would, but I don't believe the body's sinfulness can taint the soul. The root of sin is spiritual. The body makes the inward sin visible; the root sin becomes manifest in the fruit sin.

    Quote Originally Posted by Owl View Post
    We do? I think that raises too many problems. I need to deliver some papers, but I hope to combine this post with the passage from Ezekial you quoted to show how this interpretation is unacceptable for the Christian... to be continued.
    1) I would refer you to my reductio ad absurdum regarding the body tainting the soul.

    2) If you deny the argument, then it seems you must accept, contrary to your own statements to Jivin, that souls can act without bodies, incurring sin and whatnot.

    3) This denial of body affecting soul may satisfy the Descartian dilemma about the material and the immaterial not being able to affect one another... it brings down the argument I was laying out... and leaves us with the problem of transmission of Original Sin all over again. Denying that the body affects the soul, how do you explain Original Sin, particularly since you said elsewhere that you believe in the simultaneous generation of soul and body? From an agglomeration of your comments, I'm lead to believe you deny Original Sin.
    Madman's azure lie: a zen miasma ruled.

    Realize us, Madman!

    I razed a slum, Amen.

    ...............................................

  7. #47
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Samuel De Mazarin View Post
    BUT THEN... if the body cannot corrupt the soul, we're back to the question that began this whole thread: how can original sin be transmitted?!?!?! Original sin is crucial to the Biblical conception of life and the after-life.
    Yes! Even if it was Adam's soul that chose to sin, apart from his body (making his deed irrelevant), we could no longer explain how that sin gets transferred to future generations (meaning the presence of Adam's bloodline would be meaningless as regards the passage of sin from one person to the next).

    And furthermore, if the soul is sentient, as we must accept if we believe that it can make choices apart from the body, then why have the body at all? It would seem, if sin is not transmitted from body to soul, that the body is irrelevant and only functions as a hindrance or imperfection.
    Artes, Scientia, Veritasiness

  8. #48
    Senior Member JivinJeffJones's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Samuel De Mazarin View Post
    BUT THEN... if the body cannot corrupt the soul, we're back to the question that began this whole thread: how can original sin be transmitted?!?!?! Original sin is crucial to the Biblical conception of life and the after-life.
    It's a tricky one.

    Don't make me get out my bible and systematic theology books. I'm not even sure where they are.

  9. #49
    Wonderer Samuel De Mazarin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JivinJeffJones View Post
    It's a tricky one.

    Don't make me get out my bible and systematic theology books. I'm not even sure where they are.
    I'd actually enjoy having some textual reference (which is why I pulled out Ezekiel)... maybe we can take this discussion to the next level!

    First of all... establish what the "authoritative" Biblical view on soul, spirit, and body is...

    Then move on to body.

    Then Original Sin... every statement must be backed up by at least one textual reference (Book, Chapter, Verse).

    Game?
    Madman's azure lie: a zen miasma ruled.

    Realize us, Madman!

    I razed a slum, Amen.

    ...............................................

  10. #50
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Samuel De Mazarin View Post
    I'd actually enjoy having some textual reference (which is why I pulled out Ezekiel)... maybe we can take this discussion to the next level!

    First of all... establish what the "authoritative" Biblical view on soul, spirit, and body is...

    Then move on to body.

    Then Original Sin... every statement must be backed up by at least one textual reference (Book, Chapter, Verse).

    Game?
    I have to bow out for the present...but I will be back.
    Artes, Scientia, Veritasiness

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