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  1. #31
    Senior Member Bamboo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Newbyagain View Post
    I don't get your long night sentence???
    I was just stating off hand I had a long night and made a silly error, of course, Allah is God, Mohamed the prophet.

    I guess a moderator changed my language, because I don't use the term like-minded, but I'm not worried about it. Just thought it was strange.
    I originally referred to 'like minded Christians', you were probably copying my speech as I typed it...

    I totally agree with you there. I am worried that a community with such dedication and discipline could get scary...
    How do you mean this?
    Don't know how much it'll bend til it breaks.

  2. #32
    Emperor/Dictator kyuuei's Avatar
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    I'm a bit bias on this, because I've been to countries where Islam dominated.. Very true: they are disciplined in comparison to many Christians.. but there's downsides to go with that. There's little in the way of flexibility.

    Religion is more than just what is written. It is culture as well. Different sects an even churches have different cultures brought about via their religion. Islam tends to have a culture that is vastly different from other religions I've ever encountered. Some of it is admirable. A lot of it, to me, is not.

    If you're looking at the whole 'practice what you preach'.. the Koran gives more scripts and favorable mentions to women on respecting them than Jewish or Christian texts combined. (I'd give a quote, but that was in our textbook in school and confirmed by a girl in our class) The problem is? The culture doesn't always equate to the religion. Iraqi men treated their women like shit. They treated every single woman like a piece of property.

    Look. The only reason you should convert to Islam is because you decided that the teachings sang to your soul. You read the passages, you felt connected to them, and to God through them. Nothing else should sway you. Not all the shitty Christians, not all the awesome Muslims, nothing. Community is a great thing to have--and it is entirely possible to find prayer and community in Mosques without converting... But Islam is a religion and a lifestyle change. It should be something that is in your heart.

    I guess what I'm trying to say is. People fuck up. A lot. And in every single religion. You're saying you've seen all these amazing Muslims--but other people have seen the opposite.. finding a few good ones in a batch of bad eggs. People do not make or break a religion. That is a personal quest, and one you must find in your heart for your own.

    Read the Koran. If you still feel like converting after you've read every passage, then that is the right choice for you. But Christianity shouldn't be blamed just because of Christians, if that makes sense. There are supportive, truly welcoming Christians out there. If I were you, I'd rather make a location change or actively start seeking a church I could connect with before I made the switch over.
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  3. #33
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Riva View Post
    Islam has a lot more welcoming/marketing traits than multiple wives. Sex slaves and underage wives are a few more. Also Islam gives the right for it's followers to rape non-Islamic-women. Mohomed himself had sex slaves. The Quran says that he treated them well.
    And the Bible doesn't encourage such things? The only reason Christian doctrine outlawed multiple wives was because the Romans disliked the practice and chose to ignore the fact the Bible readily endorses it.

    The Quran is no more violent, misogynistic, sadistic and hateful than the Bible. What a religious text gives you the right to do, and what is common modern doctrine, are not necessarily the same thing. The point is, as with any religion based on a holy text, it is a choice what you decide to take from that text and how you adapt it to your everyday life. All religions are interpretative, that is why almost always there are different denominations and broad variations in practices based on cultural differences.

    Personally, when people follow certain religious 'doctrine' (I use the term loosely, because for some people it means whatever the hell they want it to mean) that I think abhorrent in values, I despise the interpretation, not the religion itself. There is nothing wrong with Islam; but there are many things wrong with some interpretations. Christianity (and numerous other religions) is no different.

    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post
    If you're looking at the whole 'practice what you preach'.. the Koran gives more scripts and favorable mentions to women on respecting them than Jewish or Christian texts combined. (I'd give a quote, but that was in our textbook in school and confirmed by a girl in our class) The problem is? The culture doesn't always equate to the religion. Iraqi men treated their women like shit. They treated every single woman like a piece of property.
    Yes. The Quran is less misogynistic than the Bible.

    I agree Islam must develop and adapt to the modern era, and leave behind archaic beliefs and attitudes. But like many religions, the religious institutions and leaders have confused people and distracted them from the original positive messages (as well as telling them that any deviation from the path they have set will undermine the religion - which is nonsense). It is the same with Christians that say and do hateful things in the name of Jesus, never stopping to think that their hate is completely incongruous with Christ's teaching. In reality, Jesus would be appalled with such behaviour.
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  4. #34
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    Have you considered living with the Hare Krishna instead?

    They have a very strict amount of structure, follow a strict diet, chant a particular number of times a day, and essentially say that Hare Krishna literally translates to Christ Come.

    Some people call it Hinduism for Christians, it would give you the structure you crave, with less jihad.

    Not that all of Islam is bad, but your desperate need for structure seems like it would make you vulnerable to extremism.

  5. #35
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Newbyagain View Post
    As far as multiple relationships go though, I do have a problem with the description I have read about their heaven before, but I have not been able to find much on this interpretation. What I did read said that if you have been obedient to God enough to get into what seems to be the ultimate heaven, then you get whatever you ask for, including 70 virgins. I disagree with this for one, because I have a belief, which is sort of characteristic of being Christian that you are obedient because the natural laws in the universe in a sense reward you for it. You walk with God because there are benefits, not so that one day you can have anything and everything. I feel like the purpose in walking with God is that you learn you don't want to have all of these immediate senses met or desires you had when you were younger to come true; there are more fulfilling things out there. And of course, I simply don't like the seventy virgins itself for many reasons.
    Don't worry. The claim that martyrs will have 72 virgins in heaven is completely false. This is not even in the Quran. I have no idea why Islamic extremists, people who claim to be very religious, would believe that.
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  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post
    I'm a bit bias on this, because I've been to countries where Islam dominated.. Very true: they are disciplined in comparison to many Christians.. but there's downsides to go with that. There's little in the way of flexibility.

    Religion is more than just what is written. It is culture as well. Different sects an even churches have different cultures brought about via their religion. Islam tends to have a culture that is vastly different from other religions I've ever encountered. Some of it is admirable. A lot of it, to me, is not.

    If you're looking at the whole 'practice what you preach'.. the Koran gives more scripts and favorable mentions to women on respecting them than Jewish or Christian texts combined. (I'd give a quote, but that was in our textbook in school and confirmed by a girl in our class) The problem is? The culture doesn't always equate to the religion. Iraqi men treated their women like shit. They treated every single woman like a piece of property.

    Look. The only reason you should convert to Islam is because you decided that the teachings sang to your soul. You read the passages, you felt connected to them, and to God through them. Nothing else should sway you. Not all the shitty Christians, not all the awesome Muslims, nothing. Community is a great thing to have--and it is entirely possible to find prayer and community in Mosques without converting... But Islam is a religion and a lifestyle change. It should be something that is in your heart.

    I guess what I'm trying to say is. People fuck up. A lot. And in every single religion. You're saying you've seen all these amazing Muslims--but other people have seen the opposite.. finding a few good ones in a batch of bad eggs. People do not make or break a religion. That is a personal quest, and one you must find in your heart for your own.

    Read the Koran. If you still feel like converting after you've read every passage, then that is the right choice for you. But Christianity shouldn't be blamed just because of Christians, if that makes sense. There are supportive, truly welcoming Christians out there. If I were you, I'd rather make a location change or actively start seeking a church I could connect with before I made the switch over.
    She could also become Amish, and remain Christian.

    There are ways to get the more ascetic, structured form of religion she seems to desperately want without this more extreme conversion.

  7. #37
    Gotta catch you all! Blackmail!'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Newbyagain View Post
    Thank you.

    First you say switching religions over community issues is problematic, but then you say to switch based on values. That is sort of the same considering I would think most would expect you to switch based on the God you believe in. I do believe God sent Ishmael over to start Islam and for that in itself is enough to consider the religion wholesome and wanted by Christians' God. And back to the community thing, I believe that at least ninety percent of Christians do not practice what the Bible teaches and it makes me wonder that maybe it is due to a problem in the religion and if Islam is able to have such willing, dedicated followers, there must be something right about it.
    I don't really understand you. I've already lived in a few muslim countries, and I'd say that 99% of them do not really practise what their religion said (and most of the time, it is fortunate!). I don't find the muslim world to be especially structured, unless, of course, you've met dangerous extremist sectarians (like the wahhabites). Just like Kyuuei said, the local culture can wildly affect the way Islam is preached. Islam can be either quite tolerant and progressive (Mali, Morocco, and even some Shia ayatollahs) or completely insane and xenophobic (Pakistan, Saudi Arabia), it has lots of different faces, most of them contradicting with each other -that's why the worst ennemy of a muslim is, generally, another muslim-. Despite all the propaganda, there's no real unity within the muslim world, and most of the muslim sects will try to use you for mere political reasons rather than things like "spirituality" -unless, of course, you consider reading the Sufis-.
    Sufis are the opposite of Salafis. They love and need every form of art to get into a kind of mystical transe, while Salafis simply prohibit Art (listening to music is considered a serious offense in some parts of Saudi Arabia). And all this is happening within the same religion!

    Be also aware that once you are engaged in one of these extremist sects, there's no turning back. For wahhabites for instance, the penalty for apostasy is death. And they will try to enforce this sentence regardless of the local laws. For this reason, if you really want to convert, it could be a better idea to do it with people from a culture or a country which has prohibited death penalty (Turkey, Senegal, Azerbaijan ... etc). But if you're stuck with Arabs or Pakistanese, beware!!
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  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ene View Post
    ...the message of Jesus was to set people free, not put them in bondage to rituals and rules. Over and over he tried to get the religious leaders of his day to understand that it wasn't in keeping the "community's standards" that made them right with God. It was simply trusting that God was who he said he was and that he meant what he said.
    The complaint Jesus was making in Paul's books were that churches were making up EXTRA rules. The whole point of those books were that he had to keep saying God already gave all of the rules that were needed and adding more rules means you missed the point. He was not at all complaining that they were following rituals and rules. Everybody has rituals and Jesus certainly had expectations. There is no sin in that. If you get up and feed your dog every day, that is a ritual.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ene View Post
    The message of Jesus was freedom from the law of sin and death [Jewish religion was based in LAW. Isalm is also based in LAWS i.e. RULES]. Religions, all of them, are based on keeping rules in order to obtain righteousness with God. I ate lunch between a Muslim and a Jew at a writer's conference in Wisconsin. I sat between these two ladies, both devoted to their religions. I asked them questions about how they believed and both of them told me that their religions were "works" oriented. Both ladies told me that they believed they had to keep the rules to inherit eternal life. They both believed they have to conform to the standards of their religious community. Sadly, I have a Mormon cousin who believes he has to do so many "good works" to get into Heaven and I know several other denominations who teach such things. That's bondage. Are you sure you want to be a slave? Sadly, many people who claim to follow Christ are also slaves to religious systems, because they don't realize what his coming to earth actually signified. Often, people of all kinds, just go through the motions. They know the right things to say and the right things to do. That's among ALL people, regardless of religion.
    I never felt I was a slave or in bondage. As far as eternal life goes, most practicing Christians will tell you we don't know exactly what that is, but a lot of people believe that eternal life starts in this life. It does not mean necessarily that you go to heaven and live it up, but that if you follow the laws, you become closer to God, happiness, peace, and contentment and that when you sin you separate yourself from God. This is my complaint about Christianity though. I don't know if it is the religions fault or the people's interpretation, but somehow people equate forgiveness to no consequences or justice and I am glad I am bringing this up and talking about this because I have read before (I can't remember where) that God wants justice and it is the evil minded who do not.

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmotini View Post
    She could also become Amish, and remain Christian.

    There are ways to get the more ascetic, structured form of religion she seems to desperately want without this more extreme conversion.
    I definitely wont become Amish or the other similar one. That to me seems like it would be an even bigger lifestyle change.

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal+ View Post
    Muslims being initiated into the ranks:

    [[/IMG]
    So you decided to be offensive thinking it was funny? I don't see that funny at all, but actually stupid. Where is the metaphor or the connection?

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