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  1. #151
    Gotta catch you all! Blackmail!'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    It can be done with practice. I know Blackmail!'s odus operandi rather well, having been on the receiving end of it. He's pretty much acting as he always does, nothing new under the sun. He really likes to provoke religious people.
    You're wrong.

    I just exist, if my beliefs and existence are enough to provoke your ire, then there is nothing I can do about it.
    I have the right to be who I am. I have the right to think what I think, and be honest about it.

    You can say it's provocation, but it's just subjective honesty. Perhaps you consider that any view that is disagreeing with yours (even slightly) is a kind of provocation?

    Most of my muslim friends respect who I am, and know that I wish them no harm, and that I would never really provoke them, that I would never cross the line. So perhaps, indeed, that you could learn something from them.
    "A man who only drinks water has a secret to hide from his fellow-men" -Baudelaire

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  2. #152
    Gotta catch you all! Blackmail!'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Newbyagain View Post
    Asking someone to have respect for a forum, religion, people does not make them Al Queada. Just reported you too.
    And you will eventually get banned. Is this really what you wish, or do you still want to discuss?

    Why do you think I'm putting you in a rather "extremely conservative" category of believers?
    Are you aware that what you think is not what the majority of believers think, especially about tolerance?

    If you do not want people to believe you're an Al Qaïdist, then don't behave like one!
    "A man who only drinks water has a secret to hide from his fellow-men" -Baudelaire

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  3. #153
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackmail! View Post
    You already speak like a muslim.

    The Christian God is a God of love, while Allah is a God of justice. But now the paradox is that the most unjust and unfair societies of the world are most of the time Muslim. It's a more extreme world, where slaves and billionaires can live in the same street, breathe the same air and supposedly share the same religion.
    Quote Originally Posted by Blackmail! View Post
    And you will eventually get banned. Is this really what you wish, or do you still want to discuss?

    Why do you think I'm putting you in a rather "extremely conservative" category of believers?
    Are you aware that what you think is not what the majority of believers think, especially about tolerance?
    Haha. I don't negotiate or discusss with this kind of stuff and you aren't about to control me. Do what you want.

    Oh, I just reported your blackmailing too. I would think if you have a complaint, you would complain rather than using it to force a conversation.

  4. #154
    Gotta catch you all! Blackmail!'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Newbyagain View Post
    Haha. I don't negotiate or discusss with this kind of stuff and you aren't about to control me. Do what you want.
    Why do you think I'm here to "control" you? I'm perplexed.
    "A man who only drinks water has a secret to hide from his fellow-men" -Baudelaire

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  5. #155
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    The photo was removed, not for being insulting to Islam (as criticism of religious institutions is allowed here) but because photo-trolling without substantive comment is a common occurrence we're trying to curtail.

    You started a thread in the Philosophy & Spirituality section of the forum. This section is for general discussion and the person who starts the thread does not have control over how the topic is discussed. You have to expect that if you start a thread about a religion, you will get feedback that is supportive of that religion as well as feedback that is critical of that religion. Again, being critical of a religious institution is not against the rules here.

    If you'd like a do-over, I suggest starting a thread in the Personal Threads area, since you don't seem to want to discuss the topic generally- if you only want input from Muslims, you can ask for that there. I don't actually know if we have very many Muslims on the forum, though (I can think of a couple but I'm not going to call them out without their consent- and we used to have a poster who was an ex-Muslima who spoke eloquently about her experiences but sadly I haven't seen her in ages), so that thread might end up being pretty quiet.

  6. #156
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    The photo was removed, not for being insulting to Islam (as criticism of religious institutions is allowed here) but because photo-trolling without substantive comment is a common occurrence we're trying to curtail.

    You started a thread in the Philosophy & Spirituality section of the forum. This section is for general discussion and the person who starts the thread does not have control over how the topic is discussed. You have to expect that if you start a thread about a religion, you will get feedback that is supportive of that religion as well as feedback that is critical of that religion. Again, being critical of a religious institution is not against the rules here.

    If you'd like a do-over, I suggest starting a thread in the Personal Threads area, since you don't seem to want to discuss the topic generally- if you only want input from Muslims, you can ask for that there. I don't actually know if we have very many Muslims on the forum, though (I can think of a couple but I'm not going to call them out without their consent- and we used to have a poster who was an ex-Muslima who spoke eloquently about her experiences but sadly I haven't seen her in ages), so that thread might end up being pretty quiet.
    Thanks. And I do understand that I do not control what content goes on here. The critical feedback is great, it's the excessive generalizations and insults.

  7. #157
    Senior Member SubtleFighter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Newbyagain View Post
    No I do not want to do the branches of Christianity. I like places with more rules. I don't want to be apart of a place where people say the interpretation is completely up to however you want. Of course we all need to come to our own conclusion about the Bible, but with the help of people who are experienced in it. I don't like going to church with people announcing all over the place things they are doing that they should not be doing and using wacky interpretations of scripture to excuse it. That is one purpose in community, that people will be strong enough to call out unacceptable behavior. I just don't see that in a lot of branches. I see stubbornness.
    Quote Originally Posted by Newbyagain View Post
    Of course, nobody completely practices what their religion teaches, because nobody is flawless and Muslims believe this too. But consider that most people are not divorcing and there is a bigger dedication with prayer and covering yourself to prevent temptation, you just don't see this with very many Christians. I will give credit that there are some Christians who spend a lot of time praying, but you still have the same problems over and over and over and over again; sex, money, exploitation, worldly concerns. It doesn't stop in the Christian culture that I experience here in the states. I can't keep on living in this never ending battle and truly give up the lifestyle that condones these things on my own. I need to be around other people who see this flaw.
    I don't have time to read the entire thread, but things like this make me pause.

    For years, I was part of very structured religion like you’re talking about (not Islam, though). I get the values that you have that everybody should practice what they preach and not just pretend they subscribe to a certain set of beliefs while actually twisting things around to get away with not living up to what they claim to be. I also share this value. But while you understand that no one completely lives up to their ideals and everyone makes mistakes, I’m concerned that you don’t understand that even among groups that seem on the outside to really value everybody practicing what they preach and who call out people who don’t live up to it, even among these groups there will still be a lot of people only pretending to believe in what the group believes. This is different than saying they sincerely try to live up to it but sometimes stumble. The dynamic of any group, including ones that seem to be designed to only have true-believers in it, is that there will always be lots of people in it who secretly don’t believe or even try to follow what the group says they should, but instead are only in it for other reasons, like maybe their family history is tied up with this group or because they like the social aspect of the group. This is sometimes not apparent from looking at a group from the outside or even from being a newbie member, but it will become clear once you’re in the group long enough.

    Since the Amish have been bought up a couple of times that I’ve seen, I’ll use them as an example even though you say you’re not looking to join them. I live right next door to them, and I can tell you with 100% certainty that they have lot of people who live in their community who don’t really believe in their doctrines or rules. I see tons of Amish people using cell phones, they have radios and play modern music, and occasionally I see them even driving normal cars. And this is a group who many people view as being really strict and full of true-believers.

    I know you don’t want to believe there’s no group out there who would be filled with people you’re hoping to find, but it’s the truth.
    "Courage is not the absence of fear, but rather the judgment that something else is more important than fear."--Ambrose Redmoon

    . . . metamorphosing . . .

  8. #158
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post


    Lutheranism is a kind of "Catholicism lite" if I had to describe the differences between the two. Another option is to look at the Orthodox Church or even Eastern Catholic.
    Yeah she said she wants all of the rules and structure though and I'm really surprised she has this much complaint about the Missouri Synod (I used to attend and teach Sunday school in a Missouri Synod Lutheran church in my twenties) ...I would have sworn she was an Evangelical Lutheran, dismayed by all of the liberal interpretations by the way she's "desperate" for more structure and community.

    There was a great community at the Lutheran church I went to, and I loved the pastor there.

    I also did prison ministry and nursing home visits. I certainly didn't leave because I felt any lack of community or any lack of conservatism.

    Of course, Lutherans do drink alcohol like Catholics do...

    I'm specifically wondering what she's looking for. A non-drinking, head-covered, strong gender-role church? I keep thinking Amish. But she apparently still wants to "live among the world" despite her claims of wanting to be covered and sheltered by a community of Muslims.

    I think the Orthodox church is the only church she'd find besides Anabaptist or Mennonite where women still cover their head for prayer in church.

  9. #159
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    Quote Originally Posted by SubtleFighter View Post
    I don't have time to read the entire thread, but things like this make me pause.

    For years, I was part of very structured religion like you’re talking about (not Islam, though). I get the values that you have that everybody should practice what they preach and not just pretend they subscribe to a certain set of beliefs while actually twisting things around to get away with not living up to what they claim to be. I also share this value. But while you understand that no one completely lives up to their ideals and everyone makes mistakes, I’m concerned that you don’t understand that even among groups that seem on the outside to really value everybody practicing what they preach and who call out people who don’t live up to it, even among these groups there will still be a lot of people only pretending to believe in what the group believes. This is different than saying they sincerely try to live up to it but sometimes stumble. The dynamic of any group, including ones that seem to be designed to only have true-believers in it, is that there will always be lots of people in it who secretly don’t believe or even try to follow what the group says they should, but instead are only in it for other reasons, like maybe their family history is tied up with this group or because they like the social aspect of the group. This is sometimes not apparent from looking at a group from the outside or even from being a newbie member, but it will become clear once you’re in the group long enough.

    Since the Amish have been bought up a couple of times that I’ve seen, I’ll use them as an example even though you say you’re not looking to join them. I live right next door to them, and I can tell you with 100% certainty that they have lot of people who live in their community who don’t really believe in their doctrines or rules. I see tons of Amish people using cell phones, they have radios and play modern music, and occasionally I see them even driving normal cars. And this is a group who many people view as being really strict and full of true-believers.

    I know you don’t want to believe there’s no group out there who would be filled with people you’re hoping to find, but it’s the truth.
    No and she can't be responsible for other people's faith, either, that goes against Free Will.

    I mean I'm sure she can read about Pharisees in the Bible, people who congratulate themselves on street corners with dogma who don't feel any conviction or contrition in their hearts.

    It's funny to me though that an INFJ would idealize this kind of conformity in appearance. Maybe it's the "idealization" part that's so very NF, because her need for strict appearances almost sounds like Si to me.

    I don't understand the obsession with appearances. I think maybe it's a disgust with the modern world, but if she still wants to live in the world (and not go live away with the Amish in a more 1900 style for example) ... I don't know.

    I feel disgust with the modern world sometimes, but it's more so with corporatism and destruction of nature than accusing religious people of not being religious enough.

  10. #160
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    Quote Originally Posted by Newbyagain View Post
    True. It's kind of mind boggling to me though that he wants to hang out on a thread made by a person who clearly doesn't want to hear anything he says. It's easier said than done to ignore that when it keeps showing up on your page. I would probably be better off walking away and allowing him cause himself his own problems.
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